Democracy In Action

[buggane]

Democracy ?

 

Undemocratically elected members hold vote to ensure they continue to be undemocratically elected

 

Some of the quotes are brilliant, needs to be read to be believed;

 

"Members were also concerned at how democratic it was to have a popularly elected revising chamber. ", errr ... ?, am I missing something, its very democratic to have an election !!

 

"Juan Turner argued that by not representing a constituency members can take an 'unjaundiced view' of matters that come before them", unjaundiced by the electorate ? - god forbid !

 

"I think there is much benefit to have a group of people not tied to constituency that can take an all-Island view and, cutting ties with their original constituency, did their best for this Island in the chamber and in Tynwald", I might even agree with that one, but how does it follow that they should not be 'all-island' wide elected ?

 

Makes me proud, not

[pongo]

They are elected by people who are elected. So more elected than, say, the House of Lords.

 

It's a good thing they are not directly elected IMO in some ways. The popular vote is already populist enough. There are enough people already elected on the populists vote. Non elected people are more free to take decisions which are unpopular but correct.

[buggane]

"Non elected people are more free to take decisions which are unpopular but correct. "

 

I find that statement a little worrying !!

 

Correct according to who, about 20 people who have not been elected, or 80,000 who are effected by their decisions, if we live in a democracy then the 80,000 are by definition correct, you or I might not agree with the majority but thats what living in a democracy is about, the 'skill' is to change the mind of 80,000 people not 20 unelected people

 

Agree with you that they are elected by people who are in turn elected, which I guess is some slight hint of democracy

 

I thought they were doing away with the house of lords in the UK or was that peerships which I understand to be the automatic right to a seat on the house of lords through birth etc., not that I'm that interested in the UK to be honest

[pongo]

"Non elected people are more free to take decisions which are unpopular but correct. "

 

I find that statement a little worrying !!

 

Correct according to who, about 20 people who have not been elected, or 80,000 who are effected by their decisions, if we live in a democracy then the 80,000 are by definition correct

 

A country where people always got what they said they wanted would be horrible. It would be like letting toddlers eat sweets until they are sick and all their teeth fall out. As Sid Viscous said, I've met the man in the street and he's a **nt.

 

I thought they were doing away with the house of lords in the UK or was that peerships which I understand to be the automatic right to a seat on the house of lords through birth etc., not that I'm that interested in the UK to be honest

 

Well their Upper House is, kind of, our Upper House - so it's worth being interested

[buggane]

@ Sid Vicious being brought into discussion !

 

You either have democracy or you don't as I see it

 

If the man in the street is going to make stupid decisions then thats just a reflection on how ill educated the man in the street is, which is at least partly the responsibility of the government to address, or, more cynically are they happier with the man in the street being ill educated in political matters ?

 

I've met the man in the street and as far as I'm concerned they have better morals and a better understanding of peoples real needs than anybody in government, to think otherwise is to basically say do away with democracy as its pointless - which I recognise is a point of view that some people hold and think that it would be better for the best educated / qualified people to be in government, but where does that lead us ?

 

I haven't got any answers , just interested in discussion

[Lee54]

So they want to leave the door open for failed MHKs to get back in to the Honey Pot, how many MHKs that have been rejected by the voters, have managed to get into LEGCO of the past few elections. My opnion would be that if you stand for the Keys and dont get in you should be banned from going into legco

[scarbunny]

@ Sid Vicious being brought into discussion !

 

You either have democracy or you don't as I see it

 

If the man in the street is going to make stupid decisions then thats just a reflection on how ill educated the man in the street is, which is at least partly the responsibility of the government to address, or, more cynically are they happier with the man in the street being ill educated in political matters ?

 

I've met the man in the street and as far as I'm concerned they have better morals and a better understanding of peoples real needs than anybody in government, to think otherwise is to basically say do away with democracy as its pointless - which I recognise is a point of view that some people hold and think that it would be better for the best educated / qualified people to be in government, but where does that lead us ?

 

I haven't got any answers , just interested in discussion

 

The man on the street not knowing what they want is nothing to do with education, its a combination of greed and not being able to see the big picture.

 

If you were to ask the man on the street if he would vote for a 0% tax on everything he would jump at the chance, no tax what’s not to like. Then a year later the same man on the street will be complaining about the state of the roads the lack of health care why his children cant go to school.

 

I wouldn’t go as far as to say the man on the street is a c*nt he and everyone else is just shit.

[Stu Peters]

That Sid Viscous was an unctuous character!

 

Democratic politics (Keys included) is a beauty contest. Candidates seem to talk the talk to get elected and then rarely achieve a fraction of what their manifesto promised once ensconced. Here, it's a case of 'oh, I'll vote for X because he's quite a good fella" but whether that makes him a good constituency MHK or department member (or Minister) is subject to debate.

 

I can see the point of MLC's being elected as they are presently - sure, it's a grace and favour thing, but would the alternative be any better? And as they've stated, the present system at least allows them to be free of the shackles of representing a part of our community, and should allow them to think on a bigger scale. Whether they do or not is another topic.

 

And at least (in theory) they're voted in on ability rather than personality.

[localyokel]

I can see the point of MLC's being elected as they are presently - sure, it's a grace and favour thing, but would the alternative be any better?

 

"Mr Controversiall" sticking up for the establishment again. Yawn.

[Declan]

But they're not really independent are they? They rock the boat and the Keys gets rid of them.

 

My problem is that irrespective of whether Legco is elected we aren't particularly democratic. I can vote for my MHK, but I have no way of influencing who the Chief Minister will be or who will form the Government. In fact if I voted for Mary, Mungo and Midge at the election, and everybody in my constituency had voted for them as well, Tony Brown would still be Chief Minister, the only difference is there'd be a different face at DAFF. What's more years after he assumed power, I still don't know how I could have voted that would have been a vote against this dire administration.

 

If you can't vote for or against the Government of your country how is that democracy?

 

So I'd use the reform of LEGCO (which don't forget most candidates signed up for in their manifestos) as part of a wider process of democratising the Island. I'd have a series of elections -

 

1. Chief Minister - elected on a whole Island basis.

 

2. Legco - 9 or so members from which the Chief Minister selects his cabinet. These are again elected on an all-Island election.

 

3. Keys - 24 members elected on the current constituency basis. They would concentrate on constituency work (I'd probably cut back on local government at the same time) and have the role of scrutinising the policies proposed by the executive.

 

This way everybody is elected; everybody is accountable; the Chief Minister governs by persuasion rather than patronage.

[bluemonday]

Unelected VOTE on being elected and decide against it.

 

How jolly amusing.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I don't see what is the fuss is about in referring to democracy and assessing it on that basis. Why, if all LegCo was elected would we then call the Isle of Man a democracy? I wouldn't. If democracy is such an issue then discuss what is meant by it first.

 

This is just the issue of whether you'd like to choose your bosses/masters or not. Not sure it makes that much of a difference, it is a slight improvement.

 

The man on the street not knowing what they want is nothing to do with education, its a combination of greed and not being able to see the big picture.

 

It isn't about not knowing what they want - that is quite patronising, to think that a small group men know better than the public as to what they and society needs. It has everything to do with education because people are educated to put faith and believe in the current system. People don't therefore think outside the box.

 

the present system at least allows them to be free of the shackles of representing a part of our community, and should allow them to think on a bigger scale.

 

I don't believe in the fiction that representatives serve the people's interests, but most people do believe this. If they do not represent anyone then who do they work for?

I think most people would at least like the government to pretend to operate as if it is only exists to do the people's will.

[manshimajin]

Well I found the Tynwald website very helpful in telling me the seating plan for the Legislative Council. What it did not tell me is what work they have actually DONE, what potential disasters they have headed off at the pass, what new ideas they have generated, what bigger scale thinking they have demonstrated.

 

Stu, as you said:

as they've stated, the present system at least allows them to be free of the shackles of representing a part of our community, and should allow them to think on a bigger scale. Whether they do or not is another topic.

However I don't see why, if this type of assembly is to be kept, there couldn't be a popular vote for them on an Island wide basis so that they would be equally unshackled and there would be a choice of candidate (a bit like the vote for the Senate in Australia which is on a State-wide basis).

 

Is there any provision for citizens to require a referendum to be called - as per Switzerland or California? Maybe even a campaign similar to the 'anti-fluoride' one to put an end to this cost?

[Miss Take]

I've been off Island for too long. My brain read Juan as Hwan.

[piebaps]

I've been off Island for too long. My brain read Juan as Hwan.

 

Like it like it.

 

Odd isn't it? JT gets into LegCo and all of a suden Energy are after the TT!!!!

 

I know I know, he declared and interest and left the room!!!!