Chinahand Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 The Forum is full of topics about religion, Islam, Veils and beliefs at the moment. The below is really a piece of personal writing rather than a topic for debate, but I thought I’d share it. So I’ve posted it down here in the Books and Writings Section. I think it is more appropriate here than anywhere else. Its a piece of creative writing more than anything Sometime recently … I’m sitting in the domestic departure lounge at Heathrow … I’ve a three hour wait for my return flight and I’m bored mindless. A Times, an F.T., a Foreign Affairs, all purchased browsed/read through and now, looking for another distraction, I’ve bought a pad and a couple of pens – they wouldn’t sell me just one! – so I can scribble down some thoughts. The Foreign Affairs magazine had an article about Religion in American Politics which spurred me to buy it. I’ve been thinking quite a lot about religion recently. The Pope’s controversial lecture on “Faith, Reason and the University” has really set me thinking and the Foreign Affairs article was a nice accompaniment. In the interminable queues you have to go through to get through security I started chatting to a couple of young ladies who I assume work for Price Waterhouse – the computer one of them had was so branded anyhow. Both were chatty and seemed to want to start a wider conversation than just two colleagues standing in a queue. One was tall, blonde; miniskirt and boots: the other had a broad Scottish accent, and suddenly worried she had left some banned lipstick in her bag, resulting in a sudden rummage through its multiple pockets – she also wore an orthodox, traditionally black Muslim head scarf, covering her hair and setting off her eyes. I’d have like to have chatted with her some more, but apart from some pleasantries and a brief discussion of the madness of the current security arrangements we went our separate ways once through the X-rays and metal detectors. Rationality and God: how should we view faith? A rational decision, a delusion, a cognitive dissonance? – I nearly bought Richard Dawkins’ latest go at religion; using his certainties to attack the “God Delusion” while browsing in WHSmiths, but gave up having too many books, including his last book on Human Evolution, gathering dust on my book shelf at home. Should we look for rationality in God’s works and deeds? I imagine the Muslim lady replying that it would be a prime arrogance to presume God’s actions could be squeezed in a rationalist box, or that we could possibly be able to understand the motivations of a divine being to be able to make any pronouncements on their rationality or otherwise. I think that is close to a perfect reply to any sceptic – but being such a sceptic I also find it extremely dissatisfying. Is it illogical to believe? Is it an irrational fever, or a madness of crowds? Knowing many intelligent, thoughtful people of faith I think that goes too far, but what about its opposite? Is faith rational? I have my doubts about that too; which seems to leave me in a logical no man’s land – no wonder I’m confused about such things. Or isn’t the whole point about faith, going back to my Scottish accented fellow traveller in the security queue – isn’t the whole point about faith, that it is not proven; left hanging on Damocles’ sword point. For me I look out into the world and see very little of the divine: the endless infinities of galaxies and stars point to our insignificance; the ions of blind time and replication build life and our current existence is a struggle to create a lasting legacy out of our ignorance, misunderstandings, nature’s indifference, and the inheritance we have received from our ancestors, some of it positive, much of it not. The fact that we can succeed in this and can achieve, and hope, for a better future gives me great happiness and confirms my optimism, but gives me little or no reason to have faith in any being that is recognisable as Christ’s or Mohamed’s God. A Gnostic Demiurge, or Spinoza’s God, beloved of Einstein, maybe, but these are distant agnostic beings who seem incompatible with theology. Christianity, and Islam, make much grander claims for their God. And that is my dilemma, the only God compatible with my world view is demoted from the central position those of faith claim he/she/it occupies; though I do know some Quakers who sense Christ in something close to a theological vacuum. Faith provides, I think, an intimate relationship, sometimes unanswered, sometimes unsure, but within that enveloping silence, my friends who have faith say, there is a genuine sense of God and his Revelations; to be considered and struggled with. I think those of faith would say there is something tangible about their sense of God. But I say that sense could be a dilusion: what I’ll call my “God Delusion” I imagine a weaker form that Dawkins’, but for me it is powerful even so. Some sense, some do not, and those who do sense, feel a presence conditioned by culture, tradition and the randomness that humanity is wont to have. I feel that the claims people of faith make of their Gods do not justify the reality, provide a majesty he does not wear; and so makes me wonder what remains. I started by musing that faith meant that the case was not proven, but now I feel that rationally if that is all faith is left with, then it is on very weak ground. My doubt and scepticism comes from feeling that faith is built on sand. Salman Rushdie noted that the opposite of faith was not disbelief, but doubt; and I think on that note I will end. Faith is not rational, but doubt is, I believe, a more rational response to the uncertainties of this world and the failures of revealed religions to answer the questions that plague the soul. How dangerous is doubt to faith? I don’t know. The world seems ever more full of those who are full of certainties about their religion and what they are commanded to do in the name of their God. We do not seem to live in sceptical times. I do not know how people with this type of belief justify their actions, but feel they will say rationality is not a necessary commandment of God. These people scare me; for all I fear that their towers are built on sand, what they build, and destroy, brings suffering to many. I prefer my little doubt, and the optimism brought to me by the successes our scepticism and rationality have had in lifting us from ignorance to a better understanding of the world. I wonder what other people think? I’d have liked to have asked the Muslim lady in the security queue and think I will pass this on to see what others say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Chinahand. I shall have to digest all of this and come back to the topic. I doubt very much whether many religious people - certainly of the Christian variety, could say they are "certain". Most of us including me have Doubting Thomas moments and I for one believe this is how it should be. I do not think my God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, would want it any other way. We are endowed with human intelligence, not superhuman powers and insight, so we should question, we should learn from our experiences, good or bad,and we should build a better world. It has been said politics is the art of the possible. Many of the things which all of us would like to happen in this world depend on making them possible. I believe God does this through humankind, some who have deep faith and some with none. My faith is not as strong as I would like it to be as I am full of human frailities but God does use us all in his own way. This is my belief. Others will disagree but I believe God is a rational God and uses all the material He has to provide us in time with a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 The question of faith is a hard one, for it is so intricate and deep. I define ‘faith’ much as the scriptures do, that is, that ‘faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things. Therefore, if you have faith, you hope for things which are not seen, but are true’. Faith is a belief… acted upon. Hard to explain really, but I hope you get me. In my mind, there are many levels of faith and none of us are all that advanced! Some have more faith than others, but none know that God lives for a certainty – for his existence cannot be proven, only believed. When someone literally knows that God lives, he/she no longer has faith – but a perfect knowledge of that thing! And that is different. We Christians often use the phrase ‘I know God lives’ – but that is not a literal meaning. By that, one refers to themselves as being one of a very strong faith – but yet, far short of the literal meaning. In this life, we live by faith. Wether an atheist, agnostic, or believer… we all live by faith. No one can prove that God exists, and no one can prove that he doesn’t. Therefore, in the same way that a believer exercises faith that there is a God! – so to does the unbeliever exercise his/her faith, that there isn’t. None have a perfect knowledge of that thing, and therefore, both merely believe that they are right! As a Christian, we are taught to enhance our spirituality, and it is this, that strengthens our faith. We pray, and live by obedience to the things that we are taught, which we believe to be true. We pay close attention to our experiences in life, and generally guide ourselves up the ladder of faith, by accounting for the positive experiences that we encounter. It is though, very much a personal thing. And whilst one cannot prove to others the experiences that he/she has felt, within him/herself, it is indeed true. I have encountered spiritual/divine experiences in my life, and that has strengthened my faith. I would consider my faith to be very strong, but yet, I too have my moments of doubt. They being few in number and far between, but yet, as Charles said, it is a natural occurrence. I have a very questioning mind! You may not think that, because I believe so strongly… but no, I am very cynical. I like to question my beliefs (it actually makes them stronger!!) and I am disappointed if I cannot find the answers! Sometimes it would be nice to say ‘there is no God’. I’ve considered it before! - especially in my youth (which I’m just edging out of now). The point of alcohol which has oft been discussed in this forum has long tempted me to take the easy option out. Believe me, it’s not easy to believe in God and to stick to that belief, when all around you are telling you not to. I can honestly say I have never tasted alcohol in my life – as you know, we in my church, are taught not to. My friends (especially in later years) would always be drinking and telling me to join them. And as I denied them the offer, I became increasingly ‘left out’ from my social groups. As ‘casino crazy’ said, as everyone else would be drinking wkd’s, I’d be drinking my britvic orange! My point? Well, I know from experience, at times it would have been easier for me to turn my back on my belief. But I haven’t yet, and can assuredly say, that unless someone proves to me that there is no God, then I cannot deny him. This brings me back to the point of divine experiences. I’ve had too many I’m sorry, to deny that God exists! Spiritual experiences that are inexplicable. And a life-changing-answer to a heart-felt and very specific prayer… which I will always consider a divine miracle. Before I ramble on too much, and go completely off the point of your topic (if not already) I will try to bring this to a conclusion. On the point of doubt and faith, I agree that the two are opposites. But having said that, one who has faith, can yet doubt also! Because as I said before, doubt occurs naturally, but you can overcome that doubt, through faith, much in the same way that if you doubt too much, you lose your faith completely!! We are all born with free minds, and that is the way (I believe) God intended it. Our church teaches that we lived with God before this earth, and came down here to experience and grow/mature through making our own choices! We had our memories of God hidden from us - else we would know for sure he was there – and were to live by faith! Through this, we develop our spiritual strength. Remembering of course, that we can have faith in many things! Faith that the light will work, faith that Liverpool will win the premiership this season (please!!) and amongst other things, faith in God. I offer 10% of my income to the church (as tithes) which of course, requires faith. I am yet to find though, that the promised blessings given through this commandment, fail to occur!! My faith has a looong way to go, but yes it is strong. I may be one of those people you fear chinahand… but my faith doesn’t make me crazy! There is a lot to lead us to doubt God exists, and that there is any purpose to this life at all. But on the other hand, there is much to convince us that he lives! It is only you that can decide the path you follow. And generally, it is those experiences of your own life, that will help you to decide! Well, you asked for my view…. Haha, hope I didn’t spoil too much for ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 I've little to say on the matter of faith here, instead drawing attention to the equally important issue of how great Foreign Affairs is! There used to be a time when I'd get all my news and analysis from the Economist, the Financial Times, and Foreign Affairs. Only the latter has continued to appeal to my fickle tastes, being a fine example of how when the U.S. does something good, it often does it better than anyone else in the world (sure we have Prospect magazine, but it reads like something whipped up by a student union by comparison). Sorry to hijack the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 My point? Well, I know from experience, at times it would have been easier for me to turn my back on my belief. But I haven’t yet, and can assuredly say, that unless someone proves to me that there is no God, then I cannot deny him. That is simply a justification for refusing to think things through properly. You will never get that proof, as expressed by the following analogies: "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." Bertrand Russell "The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first." Richard Dawkins DJDan - you have a mind of your own and the ability to free-think - and you are simply not using it. Your comment reveals that your reliance on faith is based on placing the burden of proof onto others. That my friend will lead to a wasted life, passed down to your children, as it was passed down to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 DJDan - you have a mind of your own and the ability to free-think - and you are simply not using it. Your comment reveals that your reliance on faith is based on placing the burden of proof onto others. That my friend will lead to a wasted life, passed down to your children, as it was passed down to you. when did I ever say that? Though, if that's how you want to view my faith, then that is you, using your free mind. But I know my faith to be stronger than you can comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Perfect quotes Albert. These were used in a two part documentary about religion earlier this year. I hope they re-run it sometime soon as it sure makes you wonder at the 'goodness' of those espousing any faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 DJDan - you have a mind of your own and the ability to free-think - and you are simply not using it. Your comment reveals that your reliance on faith is based on placing the burden of proof onto others. That my friend will lead to a wasted life, passed down to your children, as it was passed down to you. when did I ever say that? Though, if that's how you want to view my faith, then that is you, using your free mind. But I know my faith to be stronger than you can comprehend. Your words were: "But I haven’t yet, and can assuredly say, that unless someone proves to me that there is no God, then I cannot deny him." Read your own post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 aye, if only you read the whole post... you'd see i was merely enforcing the point i made throughout. None can prove, none can disprove God.. as even you would agree. You exercise faith too Albert, only in another source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 aye, if only you read the whole post... you'd see i was merely enforcing the point i made throughout. None can prove, none can disprove God.. as even you would agree. You exercise faith too Albert, only in another source. Except, as a follower of science - science isn't religion and it doesn't just come down to faith and is based upon verifiable evidence. For example if the earth was created in six 24-hour days, and if the chronologies in the Bible are correct, then earth would be about 6,000 years old. Do you believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4mbi Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 [angryhead] ...Remembering of course, that we can have faith in many things! Faith that the light will work, faith that Liverpool will win the premiership this season (please!!) and amongst other things, faith in God. I offer 10% of my income to the church (as tithes) which of course, requires faith.. ...... There is a lot to lead us to doubt God exists, and that there is any purpose to this life at all. But on the other hand, there is much to convince us that he lives! ... What a surprise you are a red nose.... why do you need faith that the light will work ??? if it has a supply of electricity and if it functions as designed, it WILL work! no faith required there just logic and the ability to "THINK FOR YOURSELF" you "hope" the the rs will win the premiership, it's hardly faith and in any case a laughable idea Can I have 10% of your salary too if I promise you that you'll go to heaven? what difference does it make it I say you will or the book of Moron says you will ? there is much to convince us that he lives! - Really ? where is your verifiable evidence ? I'm definitely not convinced. Your statement to Albert "But I know my faith to be stronger than you can comprehend." that is without doubt the most arrogant, condecending, rude and insulting post I have read on these forums. and shows you up for the misguided, deluded young man I perceive you to be. [/angryhead] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimeejulia Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 how tiring...another religion thread is there nothing else to talk about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4mbi Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 :lol: so start another topic on something else then? world fish price ? vector calculus? best hair product ? there's loads else to talk about!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Hmmm so that wasnt you parked at church yesterday then B4mbi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeky boy Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Just a couple of questions: What exactly is the "holy spirit"? I get the father & son bit but the other one gets little press by comparison so I'm a bit in the dark about him/her/it Also, can you get tax relief on the 10% of income donated to the church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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