Irving Pleads Guilty To Holocaust Denial

[haX0red_Account]

sure- I do appreciate where yer coming from- guess my big issue is wooly lawmaking and I do know the lib left aren't always the prime culprits- austria's law is ridiculous but hopefully this guy is just soooo big on the idiot scale that even the boneheads can't justifiably use him as a martyr!

[Declan]

One wonders what new evidence has come to light since 1989 to convince him of the truth of the holocaust.

[Rog]

Still demanding your pound of flesh, what a sad race of people.

 

Actually that obscure reference to Shylock was fairly clever.

 

It’s not widely recognised or realised that Shakespeare, like many of his day, was markedly Jew hating.

 

But no, this is not about a pound of flesh. This is about someone who has for years been spreading lies with the deliberate intention to create and / or feed a Jew hating sector and Molag, let me tell you here and now that there are a great many people who fervently DO believe the crap that he wrote.

 

Worse yet is the effect that his crap has in the Middle East where it is widely taken as being gospel truth. Look at Iran for example and the declaration by Ahmadinejad who seriously declares that there was no holocaust and has quoted stuff that Irving has written to support his views.

[mollag]

I do understand what you mean Roq, i meant in the confines of the forum where we may differ in opinion, those opinions each have credability, the denyers are beyond the pale.

 

It is though a good example of the fact that people can convince themselves of anything, no matter how obviously wrong it is. This is how terrible things like the holocust occur.

 

It is true also that many in the east believe this shit, but we are also guilty in the West, hence Irving and the need to pass laws to prevent it, but i think it is worth remembering that the Middle east played no part in the holocust and indeed as semetic people they would have suffered similarly had the fascists had their way.

[Rog]

I do understand what you mean Roq, i meant in the confines of the forum where we may differ in opinion, those opinions each have credability, the denyers are beyond the pale.

 

It is though a good example of the fact that people can convince themselves of anything, no matter how obviously wrong it is. This is how terrible things like the holocust occur.

 

It is true also that many in the east believe this shit, but we are also guilty in the West, hence Irving and the need to pass laws to prevent it, but i think it is worth remembering that the Middle east played no part in the holocust and indeed as semetic people they would have suffered similarly had the fascists had their way.

 

You’re right of course, the other Semitic people along with all the other ‘untermenshen’ together with the increasing number of German people who learned of just what the Nazis were up to and objected would have been under the neo-Aryan jackboot.

 

The problem is that Irving’s crap fed so much of the existing trouble in the Middle East by denying that there WAS a holocaust.

 

And it didn’t stop there. His published opinions on Jewish people along with opinions are something else, a thing that was added to his revisionist rubbish along with his faux image of being an English academic.

 

It’s also worth bearing in mind that our Freedom of Speech is not at all well understood in many countries where it is seen as being tacit governmental approval as without such approval as any item in their national media, be it News or a documentary, would not see the light of day and if something did sneak through then the people responsible would be in jail in double quick time.

[silverback]

I do understand what you mean Roq, i meant in the confines of the forum where we may differ in opinion, those opinions each have credability, the denyers are beyond the pale.

 

It is though a good example of the fact that people can convince themselves of anything, no matter how obviously wrong it is. This is how terrible things like the holocust occur.

 

It is true also that many in the east believe this shit, but we are also guilty in the West, hence Irving and the need to pass laws to prevent it, but i think it is worth remembering that the Middle east played no part in the holocust and indeed as semetic people they would have suffered similarly had the fascists had their way.

 

I seem to recall that in 1941, prior to the Wansee conference, the future of Jews in Europe was a subject of discussion between Hitler, and Haj Amin al Husseini the exiled Mufti of Jerusalem. It's well documented.

[mollag]

That sounds about right for Adolf, he worked the "my enemies enemies are my friends" system well and as the Mufti would have been exiled by the British it seems to fit. Never the less, the old Mufti would have still been a semite and once his usefullness was at an end, well you know.

 

 

And i find myself in agreement with Roq again [weird eh!] certainly Irvings output fueled many minds looking for reasons to hate and as such should be condemmed by all. Look to the damage done historically by The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, phoney as hell but i reckon shite like that helped Hitler into power.

[ans]

Not been following the thread, but I saw this come up on an RSS feed and nobody posted about it yet...

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/21/news/irving.php

 

Edit: Woops, seems like that was a few days ago. Guess it's old news.

[the-rhymes]

I stand to the left politically and I'm glad that Irving is getting punished. I also agree that his brand of filth adds fuel to the fire.

 

Apparently he read the personal files of Adolf Eichmann and that changed his mind. I wonder how a man can know deep in is heart he is wrong yet still say the opposite.

[LoneWolf]

Ever heard of the Devils Advocate???? Though I don't think that in this case that would be true.

 

However I do think it is slightly hypocritical to refuse free speech, every viewpoint has a right to be heard. And every one has the right to refute it as well if they wish to. Otherwise you are just as guilty of persecution as those you would criticise. Just in other ways. Remember where once you burn books, later you burn people....

 

There are laws in Europe, notably Germany and Austria, which make it a criminal offence to deny the holocaust happened.

These laws were passed alongside others which ensure basic human rights such as freedom of speech.

You might think this is a contradicition but no one had any doubts, in the immediate post war period, that both were required.

 

This is why

 

There was an urgent need for both Germany and Austria to undergo a process of de -nazification.

Whereas Germany experienced a comprehensive programme of de - nazification laws there were special problems in dealing with Austria.

Nazi party membership in Austria was about 25 % of the population. A much greater proportion than in Germany. Moreover, nearly all the Austrian intellectual elite had become members of the Nazi Party.

In short it was judged as less than practical to apply the whole programme of de - nazification to Austria because a large proportion of the population would be denied basic rights such as freedom to vote and freedom to choose a vocation.

As a result there were many nazi party members who remained in key government posts and nazi party members were not barred from holding public office in Austria.

This situation continues to haunt Austria today. Austrian policies have frequently been criticised, with good reason, for having a pro nazi bias and Austrian politicians have been accused of war crimes.

In addition, there have been frequent and recent flurries of neo nazi activity in Austria.

 

All of this suggests, to me anyhow, that existing laws which make it a criminal offence to deny the holocaust, are still required in Austria.

[LoneWolf]

Perhaps there should also be similar laws in Japan forcing them to acknowledge their countries wrongdoings during WW2? A number of very highly prominent Japanese companies developed themselves by exploiting POW's and subgegated people during WW2. Yet most of the Japanese population is ignorant of this. Why the difference???

 

This is the Difference

[Declan]

Still demanding your pound of flesh, what a sad race of people.

 

Actually that obscure reference to Shylock was fairly clever.

 

 

Not that fucking obscure.

 

And a pretty shabby post if I may say so.

[Gladys]

Sorry to add to this thread without adding anything new, BUT I do find it shocking that anyone could deny what happened in WWII! The man was anti-Jew, without doubt. I read many of the transcripts of the Nuremburg trials as a student and what struck me time and again, was the absolute unfounded hatred for the enemy (not only Jews, but Polish catholics, homosexuals, mentally infirm, Gypsies, etc).

 

Not once did you get the feeling that the compartmentalisation of various sections of humanity was wrong, and we are still living with that mentality today; witness Rwanda, Former Yugoslavia, Indonesia, - the list could go on.

 

How you break the chain? I don't know. But what I do suspect is it could be broken by moving away from "I am a **** " whatever to just "I am a person trying to live in this world also".

[LoneWolf]

I think you prove my point that while I am informed on the Holocaust, through both my family, society and through education you are ignorant of the actions of the Japanese due to historical whitewashshing, and societes choices on what it will hightlight. Otherwise you would understand the point.

 

Take a step back here Stuart. You asked what the difference was presumably in the context of the current thread. Just a gentle reminder, its about holocaust denial.

for the avoidance of doubt I am not ignorant of the actions of the Japanese. There is however a major difference. The Japs were not nazis and they did not organise the industrialised murder of millions of people.

 

My Grandfather wept when he saw the holocaust exhibition. And why? Because he had seen the same things happening to himself and his comrades when he was a prisoner of the Japanese. Don't you ever dare to suggest that his plight and suffering was somehow less than that of a victim of the Holocaust.

 

First of all I have never met your Grandfather. I have no doubt he was or is a gentleman.

I would dispute your assertion he had seen the same things happen to himself and his comrades as happened during the holocaust. The Japanese, for all the cruelty and abominations they inflicted on people during World War 2 never at any time constructed purpose built facilities for the explicit purpose of exterminating millions of people.

Just to put this one to bed. I have not at any time made an any suggestion that his plight and suffering was greater than or less then anything else. You have imagined this. I do not know and have never known your Grandfather so how could I ?

[LoneWolf]

Sorry to add to this thread without adding anything new, BUT I do find it shocking that anyone could deny what happened in WWII! The man was anti-Jew, without doubt. I read many of the transcripts of the Nuremburg trials as a student and what struck me time and again, was the absolute unfounded hatred for the enemy (not only Jews, but Polish catholics, homosexuals, mentally infirm, Gypsies, etc).

 

Not once did you get the feeling that the compartmentalisation of various sections of humanity was wrong, and we are still living with that mentality today; witness Rwanda, Former Yugoslavia, Indonesia, - the list could go on.

 

How you break the chain? I don't know. But what I do suspect is it could be broken by moving away from "I am a **** " whatever to just "I am a person trying to live in this world also".

 

Irving isnt alone in denying the holocaust. The denial, anyhow, is motivated by a desire to legitimise a rebirth of the nazi party or, at least new parties guided by nazi principles.

Unfortunately, denial of the greatest crime ever committed against humanity, and presented by such as Irving as scholarly works, has also been used by others, for example muslim extremists, to justify their own ends.

I dont think we will ever get to your ideal situation. I wish we could.