manxchatterbox Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 On MR website quote "Manx farming can't survive without subsidies" says Chairman of the Manx National Farmers Union Howard Quayle. Agriculture Minister Phil Gawne says:- "government can only be expected to do so much" So IOM managed to secure the derogation from Brussels for continutation of the restrictions on meat imports for a further five years..... What was the contingency plan if Brussels hadn't agreed? Exactly what is the plan for the eventual cessation of the derugation? Sooner rather than later the existing goal posts have to be moved and the financing to suit. I don't mine contributing towards agriculture but only if there is a plan put forward which has a goal and which is feasible and can be achieved within budget. Does anyone think Phil Gawne and the Dept are able to work something out with producers and consumers and have the backbone to do publicise something from his Dept that the IOM can sign up to before the next election or not? What are the figures and what should we expect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The figures are quite scary though i admit that i havnt looked in many years, last i looked direct subsidies to farmers ran at something in the region of £50 per head of population. Indirect susidies ie building infrastructure plant etc not included, its big bucks to very few people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Smelly Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 It all comes down to Value for money. If it is cost effective to give to the farmers then i am all for it. Sadly the farmers need to realise that the islands money comes from a different industry nowadays so the government seems to want to invest more into that than farming. The Government is giving away £1 million a year to farmers to improve the farms, this is before any subsidies. The local builder or tradesman get's nothing at all so i think they need to realise something is better than nothing. The world has moved on, and i am afraid if the farmers don't they will be left behind. They even get grants to buy tractors and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Britain, including the IOM, came close to having its population starve to death during WW2. The British Isles were effectively blockaded by a relatively small U boat force and the importance of having a farming industry capable of feeding the population was a lesson learned by most politicians. There were already some subsidies in place. These were greatly strengthened as a consequence of lessons learned during the war. A long time has passed since then and I suppose we have to consider if the farming industry is still important to us in terms of being able to feed us all in the event of hostilities or a blockade of thse Isles. I dont think it is a decision to take hastily. Maybe a review of the situation needs to be undertaken prior to either improving or rationalising the system of subsidy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catchy Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Good point LoneWolf. I do not have any problem with subsidies being given to our farmers, and any manner of protection given to ensure their survival. We need to be at least somewhat self-sufficent, we do not produce anything else apart from food and overpaid clerks and typists! I wonder how many years of farming subsidy the wedding cake renovations, multi-million£ knocking down of Derby Castle and all the other massive spending we've seen recently would cover? and which would be of more use during tight times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Fugit Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I think a self-sufficient capability has to be maintained, you never know how quickly the world could change with a fuel crisis or trouble in the middle east etc. (or both) or heaven forbid a seamen's strike ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I think a self-sufficient capability has to be maintained, you never know how quickly the world could change with a fuel crisis or trouble in the middle east etc. (or both) or heaven forbid a seamen's strike ! I think self sufficiency has to be the only reason for continuing farm subsidies. It would be interesting to discover exactly how farmers are disposing of the subsidies. Are they effetive in ensuring self sufficiency and what proportion, if any, of self sufficiency can the industry deliver as a result of being subsidised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 They're already rich. If they can't make decent money, they should do something else, rather than being handed subsidies paid for by people many times poorer than them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 They're already rich. If they can't make decent money, they should do something else, rather than being handed subsidies paid for by people many times poorer than them Some farmers are rich others are struggling to survive. None of that has anything to do with farm subsidies. The rationale was set out a little earlier in the thread. I wouldnt disagree the whole question of subsidy is due for review. After all, the world has changed a lot since the end of WW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The whole food security argument is bogus. Taking from poor people to give to rich people is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The whole food security argument is bogus. Taking from poor people to give to rich people is wrong. No it isnt bogus. The British population came very close to starving during WW2 and it is that experience which led to a massive reinforcement of farm subsidies. There was, at that time, a general consensus that British farmers should have the capability to feed the population. Subsidies were intended to help them do just that. Taking from the poor to give to the rich is wrong. However, I do not see how that situation arises in the case of farm subsidy. Poor people, in the IOM, pay little if any direct tax. The majority of revenue anyhow comes from indirect taxation such as VAT. The bulk of this revenue is not drawn from poor people. It defies logic that it could be. The farm subsidies are drawn from general revenue. So the Manx crab argument isnt really sustainable in this case. We might find it useful to consider if we are still in a position where subsidies to farmers are in the national interest. I think we are. However, others will disagree, not for your reasons, but on the basis security of food supply is no longer a requirement. We wouldnt know unless an independent review was undertaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Cmon guys, that self sufficiency does not add up, with all our subsidies we are nowhere near sufficiency. Our agriculture is based primarily around what attracts the largest grants not a wide a varied range of produce. Overproduction of lamb and milk is a long way from self sufficiency. Re the seamans strike, we were nowhere near starving, food boats came and went as usual with odd shortages due mainly to hoarding. Its all moot anyway because untill we are self sufficient in energy and fuel we are knackered anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The food security argument IS bogus - and entirely so. Reducing subsidies doesn't mean that food doesn't get produced, it just means it is produced by reference to what people NEED, rather than some market distorting government diktat. Subsidies in Australia and New Zealand have been cut to the bone, but their farmers - shock! Horror! - continue to farm. And redistributing ANY tax paid by poor people - even VAT - to wealthy landowners turns logic on its head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'm not sure what to make of this debate. Are we talking about the UK being food self sufficient or the Isle of Man? If its the Isle of Man to quote John McEnroy "You cannot be serious!" I pretty much agree with Tugger and Mollag: subsidies just distort things and mean farmers plan their production around subsidies and not around needs. I've been made redundent from a company which couldn't hack it ... its reality. If farmers go bankrupt I doubt it'll mean their land will lie farrow ... another farmer will take it on with reduced overheads and greater income. Industries consollodate and change, but subsidies stop that occurring. Having to move on is a really tough thing to do, but most people have to do it and they don't get bailed out by the government to stop it happening. All the claims about farming collapsing without subsidies is so much political hot air ... some farmers will ... but that's a very different thing, and though pretty bad for the farmer ... its not a bad thing for the Island in general. Looking where the Island should be spending its taxpayers money I think our general social security and health systems are there to help when people get into difficulty and we should put the money there and not into individual sectors like farming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Quite right, all the red herrings working on "manxness" and self sufficiency merely diguise a private enterprise that has become parasitic, all these reasons for and horror stories about if could just as easily be applied to the fishing industry and that went very quickly. I think it is time to pull the farms off the public teat {and manx radio as well] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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