LoneWolf Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Wind power is expensive. Much more expensive than that generated by fossil fuel burning power stations. How does that work out? I was under the impression (Possibly incorrectly) that wind turbines paid for themselves within 6-12 months and also generated the amount of power used to construct them within the same time period. Tha same cannot be said for nuclear/oil/gas/coal fuelled power stations. Or can it? The wind versus fossil fuels debate is an interesting one and I have to say that I come down firmly on the side of wind turbines, though the only obstacle to their widespread use is the usual NIMBY squad who like the idea but don't want to have them in their own backyard or even county. Do you have a link to a source that would explain your comment above? Im all for renewables as well. But there is a price to pay. I have posted some links below which make the point very well. The current situation is that renewable energy isnt cost effective at the moment in that it cant compete with burning fossil fuels. The reasons for this are several. There is the disproportionately high cost of installation and maintenance together with variable availability and expensive balancing. All this adds up to an uncompetitive life cycle cost. This is where ROCs come in. They are intended to incentivise renewable operators by affording them the opportunity to trade a valuable commodity, ROCs, as well as being able to capture the market rate for their generated output. Renewable operators are not incentivised to generate in the Isle of Man as there is no way to capture ROCs. Why not you might ask ? Because it would out turn very expensive for us to generate with our existing power stations and we would all end up paying more for power. Im sure that would be very popular ! Its actually a very topical time to be thinking about this subject as power markets have hit record high prices this year and some people, my self included, are wondering if this will be the year in which Renewables become competitive at last (because of high energy prices on the markets) We will have to wait for the post event analysis for that question to be answered but if the margin becomes very small between fossil fuels and renewables we can expect to see more interest in renewables from the big utilities. This has to happen one day just a question of when. In the meantime we have the existing system of ROCs (not in the Island) to incentivise operators to generate. Hope this helps. Oxford Uni Report DTI Costs of Renewables A bit about ROCs Renewable Obligation Some Background Edit : You need to read through all these papers carefully but for a quick cost conclusion read end of page 5 and start of page 6 of DTI paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 The Uk's largets offshore wind farm has started generating electricty to power 65,000 homes...Where is it ? well if its a clear day take a look toward Barrow and there it is 30 turbines... http://www.bowind.co.uk/press060306.htm better 30 turbines in Ramsey Bay using renewable and inexhaustible energy and an undersea cable rather than a gas fired power station?? A very topical question. Im glad you used the word energy as opposed to power because, for electricity supply there is a difference and its an important one. Power stations have to meet instantaneous demand. It is entirely logical that the prime mover has to be able to provide that response. Otherwise all oue nice electronics wouldnt work. Renewable energy, at least that generated by wind power cant provide that sort of response. Nevertheless, once the energy used in manufacture has been repaid, it is a clean method of generating electricity and we should treat it seriously. Wind power is expensive. Much more expensive than that generated by fossil fuel burning power stations. Furthermore, renewable generators are not incentivised to locate in the Isle of Man as there is no mechanism to capture Renewable Obligation Certificates (ROCs) which are worth nearly as much to the operators as the power generated is. There is a rapidly growing market in carbon emissions etc in the UK and Europe and ROcs are trading quite strongly. So, in answer to your question, no it wouldnt be a good idea to have 30 wind turbines located in Ramsey Bay. it would be distinctly uneconomic both for consumers and generators. Yes it would be a good idea to use a much higher proportion of renewable energy on the Island. How do we do it ? We utilise our existing resources and take advantage of the opportunities available in the UK power market to buy renewable energy. In other words, we buy power, generated by renewables, on the power markets or via an OTC arrangement, and import it over the interconnector. This would side step the response and frequency problems associated with wind power because we would be buying off the UK system. Would this be in the Island's interest ? I guess it would cause us significant problems vis a vis the contract we have for capacity on the gas interconnector and about which many words have been expended in Tynwald. So I guess you pay your money and take your choice. If we are serious about renewables there is an option to buy it in over the cable. We could source more than 50% of the Island's electrical energy requirements this way. This might lead to difficulties with existing expensive capacity contracts for gas transportation and we would have to find some way of coping with that. The interconnetor can't service all our needs though, 40 mw ( worlds longest immersion heater? ) capacity when our max dem is around 120 mw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 The interconnetor can't service all our needs though, 40 mw ( worlds longest immersion heater? ) capacity when our max dem is around 120 mw. No it cant do that. It can, however, meet more than 50 % of the Islands appetite for power. Remember maximum demand, which is much less than 120 MW incidentally, more like 90, only occurs once per year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 The interconnetor can't service all our needs though, 40 mw ( worlds longest immersion heater? ) capacity when our max dem is around 120 mw. No it cant do that. It can, however, meet more than 50 % of the Islands appetite for power. Remember maximum demand, which is much less than 120 MW incidentally, more like 90, only occurs once per year. It matters not how often we hit max dem but we still must have the ability to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 The interconnetor can't service all our needs though, 40 mw ( worlds longest immersion heater? ) capacity when our max dem is around 120 mw. No it cant do that. It can, however, meet more than 50 % of the Islands appetite for power. Remember maximum demand, which is much less than 120 MW incidentally, more like 90, only occurs once per year. It matters not how often we hit max dem but we still must have the ability to do so. No problem with that finlo. Not that its related in anyway to this thread. Correct me if I may be wrong but I understand the IOM has 80 MW of CCGT about 90 of Diesel and 40 of cable ? That seems an adequate comfort factor to me if you are worried about meeting demand. The thread anyhow, is really about the role renewables might be able to play and if they would be economic and if not why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 The interconnetor can't service all our needs though, 40 mw ( worlds longest immersion heater? ) capacity when our max dem is around 120 mw. No it cant do that. It can, however, meet more than 50 % of the Islands appetite for power. Remember maximum demand, which is much less than 120 MW incidentally, more like 90, only occurs once per year. It matters not how often we hit max dem but we still must have the ability to do so. No problem with that finlo. Not that its related in anyway to this thread. Correct me if I may be wrong but I understand the IOM has 80 MW of CCGT about 90 of Diesel and 40 of cable ? That seems an adequate comfort factor to me if you are worried about meeting demand. The thread anyhow, is really about the role renewables might be able to play and if they would be economic and if not why not. I meant the cable can't handle all our needs, and i think your collective mw's are a little optermistic ie a good lump of their kit unavalable at any one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I meant the cable can't handle all our needs, and i think your collective mw's are a little optermistic ie a good lump of their kit unavalable at any one time. Still nothing to do with the thread tho mcb asked if wind turbines would be a good idea. Thats what Ive tried to answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Fair enough, it just made my ears prick up as its my line of work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Fair enough, it just made my ears prick up as its my line of work No prob at all. At the power stations I presume ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Not quite but close enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynz Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Would the wind there be suitable for the turbines to work all year round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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