Amadeus Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I see from today's Examiner that Immigration and population control are on Tynwald's agenda tomorrow - points mentioned are: - people's rights to move to and stay in the IOM - status of the Residence Act 2001 (which is not in force at the moment) - The number of foreign nationals living over here, and how many non-UK immigrants are working here illegally and are entitled to receive benefits and public services - powers to stop people coming here and rules for monitoring/detection of illegal immigrants Taking that I'm an "immigrant" (well, it wasn't an invasion, as I arrived on my own..), I guess things like that could well affect me and anyone else who was not born, but lives and works here. I'm wondering what the best policy for a place like the IOM is.. Too many people coming here -> problems, not enough people coming here -> problems as well - so what stance should be adopted?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catchy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Some sort of decision on the maximum population wanted would be a start, I would like to see some public consultation on this as its my firm belief that many Manx do not want to see too many more. Not entirely sure how this would work though as obviously many manx and non-manx leave these shores for greener pastures and nobody wants to see that halted, but would a one in one out system ever work, has it anywhere else? for a small Isle it might be the only solution. how many non-UK immigrants are working here illegally and are entitled to receive benefits and public serviceswhere did you lift this from as surely if they are here illegaly they are entitled to no benefits. Even legal immigrants must wait 5 yrs before being entitled to benefits, although it should be longer I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Why don't we take the gloves off on this because everyone, MHK's included, are skirting around the issue for fear of being accused of being racist. Immigration is not the problem. The wrong style of immigration appears to be the problem. If the Island got a 100 wealthy immigrants next month; doctors, nurses, lawyers and other professionals we would not be debating this issue because its all creating a better wealthier Island and enhancing the services available here. However in this case what we are debating is the subject of "economic migrants"; namely low or no skilled people (often from outside of the EU) who would not be here if the Island was not already a prosperous place with few immigration controls and a system where if you play it right your life is easy. That is the point we should all accept before debating the matter further. The problem is that these people cannot hide on the Island as its too small, and what started as mutterings in the pub, or after dinner conversations now mean that big questions have to be answered at a political level because nobody can see what these people are doing here, how they are supporting themselves, and how long they have been here. Expand this and if any get to five years (many already here 2-3 years) they will be claiming benefits, demanding council housing and everything else and the Island needs a way of dealing with this. It also needs to make sure that cousins, uncles and remoter family are not flying over to claim of hospital, dental and other services because at the moment if you walk in off the street and give a Manx address you get treatment, no questions asked even if you have no NI history and this is happening when the DHSS is already costing £1m a week. To discuss these issues, at some point somebody is eventually going to have to broach the "R" word and deal with it responsibly, but lets not kid ourselves immigration is not the main issue here. We can pretend, but we can't hide from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I support knowing the facts but I do not agree with anyone using the race card in election year to get votes. Why do they ask these questions now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilDDog Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I agree with capping the population on the grounds that the infrastructure of the Island can't cope with the people that are here now, let alone any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I support knowing the facts but I do not agree with anyone using the race card in election year to get votes. Why do they ask these questions now? I'm sorry but nobody is "playing the race card" These questions are being asked for a reason, and that reason is that lots of people are concerned about what is happening regarding "economic migrants". As I said we have to accept that in the near future these questions are going to lead to accusations of racism, but that should not detract from the main issue which is that immigration in the bottom feeding low skilled sense is, if unrestrained, not good policy - regardless of race. Just because it is questioned does not mean that anyone is being racist, they are being concerned that money is being spent on those who continue to contribute to the Islands success not those who see it as an easy target for free housing and other benefits. Racism is a cheap call in these circumstances which will cloud the debate. As I said the debate is not about immigration. Immigration is a good thing for the Island. Its about the form the immigration takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Population control is vital and there must be a limit in a small place. If these are the reasons for asking these questions I support them but it should be made clear that we are not barring people on racial grounds. I am not making any cheap calls. In fact the MHK who is asking these questions is my MHK who I have always supported and still do. I simply will not support discrimination on racial grounds - ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 it should be made clear that we are not barring people on racial grounds. We should structure the debate around the social security agreements the IOM has. That is the point. If you're from outside the EU in particular different rules should apply because no reciprocal agreements exist regarding state benefits etc. But again you probably think this is "racist". Its not, it cold hard economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 No I do not think this is racist just plain economic sense. I have always supported population control on economic grounds. There is a point however which will making interesting reading -Do any illegal immigrants work here and if so what are their rates of pay and livinig conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 No I do not think this is racist just plain economic sense. Then we agree! But there are going to be those who are going to say that the MHK is question is racist in this instance and i don't really see that this is the issue here. Where you have a social security and hospital system that is costing £1m a day you have to look at where the money is coming from to pay for it and where it is not. That is a totally non racist standpoint to take in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Flynn Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Now your reply probably answers my question. Bill does have a lot to say on the NHS and if the reason you give are his reasons for asking these questions I fully support him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Smelly Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Well this is a Hot potato aint it. I have to say that i am infavour of people coming here, aslong as they pay their way and keep out of trouble the more the merrier. After all when you go back in history we are all immigrants to this island we call home. To a true manx person the isle of man is part of them me included. To me its the only thing that nobody can take from me, and its something these immigrants can never have. We need people moving over here to keep the place going. I think these questions need sorting out so we can finally understand the true position the government is in. Honesty is the best policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Now your reply probably answers my question. Bill does have a lot to say on the NHS and if the reason you give are his reasons for asking these questions I fully support him. I think you may want a rethink on this one Charles. There are numerous people who have settled on the Island, over a heck of a long time, who dont fit the economic profile set out at the beginning of this post. It is no less heinous to discriminate on the grounds of social or economic class than it is to discriminate on the grounds of race or disability or gender. There is a sound political knowledge base already in existence to deal with these problems, if and when they occur. I dont want Declan accusing me of sounding like Tony Blair again but the solution to issues such as these lies in having a clear understanding of citizenship and its benefits and obligations. Access to benefits such as Social Security, Health Care and Housing is one of the ways we can define citizenship. Maybe we could all do with re-reading Beveridge's ideas to gauge an understanding of how a decent society should operate. It shouldnt be a major task for our elected representatives to devise thresholds which might deter those with no intention of taking on the obligations of being a Manx citizen. People certainly donot have to be rich to fit the bill. Barring people on the grounds of class is a thoroughly unpleasant and fundamentally flawed idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Smelly Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Wars have been fought for these freedoms we hold dear. Who are we to say no to a person in need, how would it feel if the shoe was on the other foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Wars have been fought for these freedoms we hold dear. Who are we to say no to a person in need, how would it feel if the shoe was on the other foot. Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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