Positive Action Group

[Pat Ayres]

Ta for that, I thought you were talking about Steve Coren for a mo.

Interesting mix.

[Charles Flynn]

Steve works for Paul O'Neill, advocate, and gives advice on issues to some of our politicians. He is a Cambridge graduate.

[LoneWolf]

So are we seeing the emergence of a high powered version of Tynwald watch ? Or are we seeing the emergence of a political party ?

 

The former wont add anything to Manx Politics. The latter would be a positive move but would require a statement of core values and beliefs to be set out for public consumption.

[Charles Flynn]

The problem is that core values and beliefs are likely to be so bland that almost anyone can subscribe to them.

 

There was some disagreement about whether a party was to be the end result in due course. I had the feeling from the meeting that Mr Duffy wanted it but Mr Tomlinson wasn't keen.

[LoneWolf]

The problem is that core values and beliefs are likely to be so bland that almost anyone can subscribe to them.

 

They generally boil down to a choice between the market or the plan.

Important a Party lets folk know as that economic distinction tends to guide everything else a party believes in.

[Charles Flynn]

If I was to guess PAG are more interested in the market although there are committee members who have a strong social caring conscience.

 

There would appear to be a lot to do but they have to decide amongst themselves the way forward. Quite a number have got to this stage in the past but have foundered.

[manxchatterbox]

1 ) existing tenants of social housing will have to undertake a means test on income over the past 5 years to determine their ability to afford a market related rent...or, as an alternative, make future payments on an equity share basis for the property if they indicate they do not intend living in it for more than another five years or otherwise agree that they will vacate the property at the end of five years and if necessary return to the housing list

[LoneWolf]

1 ) existing tenants of social housing will have to undertake a means test on income over the past 5 years to determine their ability to afford a market related rent...or, as an alternative, make future payments on an equity share basis for the property if they indicate they do not intend living in it for more than another five years or otherwise agree that they will vacate the property at the end of five years and if necessary return to the housing list

 

Presumably you have lifted this from an old, but discarded as ridiculous, manifesto, published by the Monster Raving Loony Party ?

 

If there is a problem with high wage earners living in public housing, and it is not necessarily the case that there is a problem, it is one which will disappear in time anyhow. How ? Because new entrants to the housing list have to meet an earnings criteria.

In addition, the IOM, in common with every other half decent country / nation has a device called secure tenancy.

Why dont you try some fact checking.

[Charles Flynn]

MCB,

There are tenants in public housing who can afford to pay the going rate and should do so or vacate them for more deserving people.

 

But this is a major debate so presumably the public would be consulted before anything like you are suggesting takes place.

[manxchatterbox]

Charles you said "The problem is that core values and beliefs are likely to be so bland that almost anyone can subscribe to them"

here is a maifesto item that's not bland....something that honest folk working to better themselves shouldn't be scared of...that freeloaders should worry about and which teh supporting taxpayers in the private sector should welcome...

 

LW ..Presumably you have lifted this from an old, but discarded as ridiculous, manifesto.. NO IMO its a socially responsible centre right policy of mine...

[LoneWolf]

Charles you said "The problem is that core values and beliefs are likely to be so bland that almost anyone can subscribe to them"

here is a maifesto item that's not bland....something that honest folk working to better themselves shouldn't be scared of...that freeloaders should worry about and which teh supporting taxpayers in the private sector should welcome...

 

Lets examine the validity of that claim.

I, for one, have received, in my lifetime, a much greater subsidy for housing in terms of mortgage tax relief and grants for improvements than anyone who has lived, say in Willaston, for a long period of time ever will do.

Furthermore, house owners, having received support from non house owners via the tax system, have a growing asset and can realise a capital gain which has been subsidised by the tax payers.

Im afraid you are misinformed.

[Charles Flynn]

It certainly is worthy of debate - but the secure tenancy and the fact that some people have bettered themselves over the years are factors which have to be taken into consideration.

 

Personally I would want a longer time period for anything like this to take place. The Manx community could become very divided over this so we have to balance the economic with the social consequences. Many of the tenants are living in family homes in which they have been for over 50 years. I would want no part in any system which seriously interferes with their well being. These people will have paid a substantial amount in rent over that period but still do not own a single brick whereas someone else as paid off their mortgage and now has an appreciating asset to pass on to their children.

 

LoneWolf is making very valid points so it is not as clear as some would believe.

 

However there are cases where businesses are being run from public housing and so a market rent should be paid.

[LoneWolf]

The Manx community could become very divided over this so we have to balance the economic with the social consequences.

 

There are little, if any economic gains to be had given the exisiting system of subsidising house owners.

In the case of public sector tenants it isnt the tenant who receives a subsidy. The housing authority receives a subsidy for construction and improvements. This is a major and important distinction which anyone interested in housing policy should assimilate and understand.

To stretch the point a little, it is inevitable that if the Isle of Man moved to abolish secure tenancies it would ,not could , cause deep divisions and social conflict.

 

This isnt centre right politics mcb is chatting about. Its rabid right wing stuff.

[Albert Tatlock]

This is what I meant by joined up policies in earlier posts. You can't do one thing regarding housing, without doing another (everyone has to be somewhere). You can't do things with housing without affecting the environment. Most people can't afford a mortgage based on 8 times their current salary etc.

 

Anyone can talk about single issues - but the real added value is when the impact of all such single issues are considered as a whole i.e. policy.

 

IMHO, this is one of the main problems here at present, in that things are not thought through properly, and the consequences have to be dealt with a few years later (if they are dealt with at all).

 

That is one reason why I think it is essential to see the emergence of political parties over here, in that it forces people to get together and think through policy.

 

The island is unique - there are no roads in from everywhere else, and immigration is controllable, as is the flow/adoption of legislation. We throw these hard won opportunities and our heritage away at our peril.

 

Never in my life did I think the island would be so similar to England as it has become. Surely, the first question to ask is why?

[teapot]

This is what I meant by joined up policies in earlier posts. You can't do one thing regarding housing, without doing another (everyone has to be somewhere). You can't do things with housing without affecting the environment. Most people can't afford a mortgage based on 8 times their current salary etc.

 

Anyone can talk about single issues - but the real added value is when the impact of all such single issues are considered as a whole i.e. policy.

 

IMHO, this is one of the main problems here at present, in that things are not thought through properly, and the consequences have to be dealt with a few years later (if they are dealt with at all).

 

That is one reason why I think it is essential to see the emergence of political parties over here, in that it forces people to get together and think through policy.

 

The island is unique - there are no roads in from everywhere else, and immigration is controllable, as is the flow/adoption of legislation. We throw these hard won opportunities and our heritage away at our peril.

 

Never in my life did I think the island would be so similar to England as it has become. Surely, the first question to ask is why?

 

I'll tell you "why?" because the people that have come in from England haven't integrated and absorbed the Manx way of life but, as with most places that they colonise, they've overrun the place and installed their way of life.