wrighty Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, woolley said: As for a creator, I don't subscribe to any organised religions for the same reasons that we simply don't have the knowledge to judge, and nor did their founders. But a universal creator is a different matter. Something kicked all of this off somehow. The idea that it involved a higher form of intelligence is no more fanciful than any other explanation, particularly the "it just happened" of the big bang. Given the bizarre nature of the subject, any scenario is going to be exotic. What we have learned, thanks to Einstein and his successors, tells us that the ultimate explanation of being could well be beyond our capacity to understand. I can just about buy that we might have been started off in some sort of lab experiment - unlikely as it simply begs the question who kicked off our creator's universe? - but what I cannot and will never accept is that if such a creator is real that he in any way influences what is going on, or judges any of us, or acts upon our telepathic messages, or burns his imprint into somebody's toast as a sign of his existence, or any of the other shit that is associated more or less loosely with all the religions. I'm certainly a 6.5 on Dawkins' 7 point atheist scale, where 7 is it is impossible that a god exists. I'm almost there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 minute ago, wrighty said: I can just about buy that we might have been started off in some sort of lab experiment - unlikely as it simply begs the question who kicked off our creator's universe? - but what I cannot and will never accept is that if such a creator is real that he in any way influences what is going on, or judges any of us, or acts upon our telepathic messages, or burns his imprint into somebody's toast as a sign of his existence, or any of the other shit that is associated more or less loosely with all the religions. I'm certainly a 6.5 on Dawkins' 7 point atheist scale, where 7 is it is impossible that a god exists. I'm almost there though. Anyone who creates a world where one half of the animal kingdom kills and eats the other to survive is, at the very least, a colossal prick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, HeliX said: Funnily, I was a right-wing capitalist as a teenager. The older I get and the more I earn the more I feel that capitalism is a system that's solely designed to increase wealth inequality. Hard to say. That is currently the effect, and the more deregulated it becomes on a global basis with big capital allowed to do its own bidding unimpeded worldwide, the more skewed become the odds towards the wealthy. Having said that, capitalism does at least create wealth in the system. All it needs is bringing to heel. Marxism creates equal shares of misery for most, but even then you have an elite that takes the cream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 Just now, woolley said: Hard to say. That is currently the effect, and the more deregulated it becomes on a global basis with big capital allowed to do its own bidding unimpeded worldwide, the more skewed become the odds towards the wealthy. Having said that, capitalism does at least create wealth in the system. All it needs is bringing to heel. Marxism creates equal shares of misery for most, but even then you have an elite that takes the cream. I'm going to get groaned at for trotting out the predictable trope here, but Marxism has never actually really been tried. Capitalism does create wealth, but at what cost? Uncountable undervalued man-hours for the bottom-half (or more) of the system, and unsustainable consumption of world resources. Capitalism needs constant growth to work - sooner or later we're going to hit the cap of what growth can be provided... We're pretty off-topic here, but what do you think would bring Capitalism to heel? Any time I try to visualise what that would take it comes out looking an awful lot like Marxism . At the very least, democratisation of the workplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, HeliX said: Anyone who creates a world where one half of the animal kingdom kills and eats the other to survive is, at the very least, a colossal prick. Only by the fleeting modern values of some. For the majority of existence it's looked perfectly fine. Actually, the ecosystem is quite beautiful in its entirety. We certainly can't design anything remotely so efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, woolley said: Only by the fleeting modern values of some. For the majority of existence it's looked perfectly fine. Actually, the ecosystem is quite beautiful in its entirety. We certainly can't design anything remotely so efficient. If you have infinite, unbridled power and can't design a system without vicious death as a necessity... EDIT: I would also hope the idea that it's unfortunate that most lives on Earth end with a brutal mauling isn't a "fleeting, modern" one. Edited July 2, 2020 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 16 minutes ago, HeliX said: I'm going to get groaned at for trotting out the predictable trope here, but Marxism has never actually really been tried. Capitalism does create wealth, but at what cost? Uncountable undervalued man-hours for the bottom-half (or more) of the system, and unsustainable consumption of world resources. Capitalism needs constant growth to work - sooner or later we're going to hit the cap of what growth can be provided... We're pretty off-topic here, but what do you think would bring Capitalism to heel? Any time I try to visualise what that would take it comes out looking an awful lot like Marxism . At the very least, democratisation of the workplace. Groan!!! It has been tried. The problem is that it soon gets corrupted because of the human condition. Nobody really goes for that equality stuff. You will always have people who are smarter than the average bear, and they will not allow themselves to be held down by the dummkopf. They will always buck the system and rise to the top. Then their mates take over from them, and so on - unless you have a putsch, then another clique will assume command. Eventually you finish up with an elite like you had in the Soviet Union or like you still have in China. By definition of course, it also creates a very dull, controlling state and people with the dead eyes of the oppressed. You are an intelligent person. You can see this, I am sure. It is idealistic in the extreme to believe in another outcome. It's akin to hoping that someday nature will not abhor a vacuum. I do understand the appeal though, because I've been there and longed for exactly the same things. If the 1970s me was posting on here you wouldn't believe the bollox I would come out with. (Yeah, I know. No change at all.) As for bringing capitalism to heel, it's down to governments and it's a big ask. A start would be country by country reporting to stop multinationals upstreaming their profits to tax havens without paying the dues that indigenous onshore businesses have to pay. It would yield a lot of revenue, trillions in fact, but it would also need global co-operation, and that is not in sight. I don't believe that capitalism requires constant growth to work. That's only the case with a constantly increasing world population, which is also unsustainable anyway, so it's going to have to adapt. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 24 minutes ago, HeliX said: If you have infinite, unbridled power and can't design a system without vicious death as a necessity... EDIT: I would also hope the idea that it's unfortunate that most lives on Earth end with a brutal mauling isn't a "fleeting, modern" one. I'm putting myself in the shoes of the Creator. Ahem. I'm designing a beautiful system here. I am not handicapped by sentimentality or inhibited by brutality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, woolley said: Groan!!! It has been tried. The problem is that it soon gets corrupted because of the human condition. Nobody really goes for that equality stuff. You will always have people who are smarter than the average bear, and they will not allow themselves to be held down by the dummkopf. They will always buck the system and rise to the top. Then their mates take over from them, and so on - unless you have a putsch, then another clique will assume command. Eventually you finish up with an elite like you had in the Soviet Union or like you still have in China. By definition of course, it also creates a very dull, controlling state and people with the dead eyes of the oppressed. You are an intelligent person. You can see this, I am sure. It is idealistic in the extreme to believe in another outcome. It's akin to hoping that someday nature will not abhor a vacuum. I do understand the appeal though, because I've been there and longed for exactly the same things. If the 1970s me was posting on here you wouldn't believe the bollox I would come out with. (Yeah, I know. No change at all.) As for bringing capitalism to heel, it's down to governments and it's a big ask. A start would be country by country reporting to stop multinationals upstreaming their profits to tax havens without paying the dues that indigenous onshore businesses have to pay. It would yield a lot of revenue, trillions in fact, but it would also need global co-operation, and that is not in sight. I don't believe that capitalism requires constant growth to work. That's only the case with a constantly increasing world population, which is also unsustainable anyway, so it's going to have to adapt. You'll get no denial about being an idealist out of me! The Soviet Union and China were/are both too authoritarian to be truly Marxist/Communist. Cuba isn't a far way off, but has been crippled for the last 6 decades by US embargos. I think there are certainly places Marxism can be improved upon to bring it more up-to-date, and more workable. Any system that allows a controlling group at the top isn't really the goal. That said, I do think a more attainable goal in the short-term at least is something like the Scandinavian "Capitalism with a load of Socialist policies and more public ownership". I mostly don't have objections to your suggestions for improvements to capitalism, though I do think something additionally has to be done about wealth inequality in the workplace. It's a farce that the average CEO salary is over 100x the average worker salary. I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be higher than the average worker, but valuing two people's lives (which is what it comes down to, capitalism is buying chunks of your very much not infinite lifespan off you) so far apart is abhorrent. EDIT: Oh and don't get me started on shareholders... Edited July 2, 2020 by HeliX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, woolley said: I'm putting myself in the shoes of the Creator. Ahem. I'm designing a beautiful system here. I am not handicapped by sentimentality or inhibited by brutality. Can you at least not invent flies that lay their eggs in kids eyes and make them blind? Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Anyone who creates a world where one half of the animal kingdom kills and eats the other to survive is, at the very least, a colossal prick. Similarly, I can’t accept that everything has been designed. Like I said, I can just about believe some other intelligence started it all off, but then the universe has pretty much evolved to be how it is without further interference from this ‘god’. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, wrighty said: I can just about buy that we might have been started off in some sort of lab experiment - unlikely as it simply begs the question who kicked off our creator's universe? - but what I cannot and will never accept is that if such a creator is real that he in any way influences what is going on, or judges any of us, or acts upon our telepathic messages, or burns his imprint into somebody's toast as a sign of his existence, or any of the other shit that is associated more or less loosely with all the religions. I'm certainly a 6.5 on Dawkins' 7 point atheist scale, where 7 is it is impossible that a god exists. I'm almost there though. Oh no. I don't believe any of that shite either. It's just a fascination of how things came to be and it astounds me that most people give it so little thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dog's Dangly Bits Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Funnily, I was a right-wing capitalist as a teenager. The older I get and the more I earn the more I feel that capitalism is a system that's solely designed to increase wealth inequality. What's wrong with that? Why should everything be equal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, HeliX said: Can you at least not invent flies that lay their eggs in kids eyes and make them blind? Thanks. You're taking all the fun out of it now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, HeliX said: I'm going to get groaned at for trotting out the predictable trope here, but Marxism has never actually really been tried. Capitalism does create wealth, but at what cost? Uncountable undervalued man-hours for the bottom-half (or more) of the system, and unsustainable consumption of world resources. Capitalism needs constant growth to work - sooner or later we're going to hit the cap of what growth can be provided... We're pretty off-topic here, but what do you think would bring Capitalism to heel? Any time I try to visualise what that would take it comes out looking an awful lot like Marxism . At the very least, democratisation of the workplace. A Green New Deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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