manxman8180 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 .......I can not help but feel as though he was let to get ill in the court..... I was waiting for this gem..... Muppet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 First I am sure everyone wishes Mr Kelly a quick and complete recovery. Secondly is there not a lesson to be learned here in terms of perception. This case is hardly the crime of the century but everyone concerned seems to have been placed under a lot of stress. Surely the magnitude of the crime doesnt warrant placing people under such stressful scrutiny by the community? I know we have always reported minor crime as front page news but isnt it time we changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 So hang on a minute, a key witness in perhaps the most important trial the Isle of Man has ever borne witness to, repeatedly said that he was feeling unwell, but fuck all was done about it? Chopley, I do agree Mr kelly was entitled to have his welfare looked after. No argument there its a disgrace. No way is this "the most important trial the isle of Man has ever borne witness to" Its a relatively run of the mill criminal case which centred about a well known local politician who isnt even being charged with any offence. No murders, no arson, no violent robbery of vast sums of money.It doesnt warrant all the attention it has been given. Just try and get a little perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisner Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Whoa a sec! When it was stated that Mr Kelly said he complained of heartburn, this wasn't in or to the open court he complained. It seems this was a general statement that he had complained at some time the previous day (out of court). A small point possibly but it does put the matter in proper perspective. 6 hours to be under such duress is enough for anyone, but that is the nature of courts. Irrespective of the extreme conditions though, I can't say I am too impressed with a multi-million pound building that is inadequate for the job. It has to be said that the court would have been criticized for not allowing the trial to continue due to the hot weather but I would rather deal with that criticism than the one they will nw be under for putting Mr Kelly up for such a long time under such severe conditions. Isn't that what good old H & S is all about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Why do witnesses have to stand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisner Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 . . . well, it looks a bit shite at best, and a bit suspicious at worst. Good post Chopley, apart from the very last bit because you may not have read my last post. Will Kelly did not say in open court he was unwell. mmhhh, however, by all accounts from the look of the guy it should have been obvious he was not well and it seems everyone in court noticed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I gave evidence for four days (well, mornings actually as the case was considered too complicated for the jury to be expected to concentrate on the proceedings for a full day at a time) at a serious fraud trial in the UK a couple of years' ago. I was truly a witness (i.e. no involvement in the alleged fraud itself), but found the whole process very daunting, tiring and stressful. Add to that the apparent conditions in the court and it is little wonder that Mr Kelly appeared unwell. Having said that, surely he had legal representation at court? If so, his representative should have asked for an adjournment in his own client's interests. I do hope Mr Kelly makes a speedy recovery; after all, despite the furore, it is only money we are talking about here and not huge sums either; no one has lost a life. It isn't the trial of the century and wouldn't have much coverage were it not for the high profile associations. Declan: When you are addressing the court, you have to stand which means standing during the whole of your testimony if you are in the witness box! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisner Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I gave evidence . . . . . . in the UK a couple of years' ago. I was truly a witness (i.e. no involvement in the alleged fraud itself), but found the whole process very daunting, tiring and stressful. Add to that the apparent conditions in the court and it is little wonder that Mr Kelly appeared unwell. Having said that, surely he had legal representation at court? If so, his representative should have asked for an adjournment in his own client's interests. Is that where they have proper courts with air conditioning and such? To be honest, even if Mr Kelly had said he wanted an adjournment it would have been seen as a tactic. There is a lot of acerbic feeling flies around these places! You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't sort of thing. At another recent case in a Manx Court a very ill person collapsed after giving evidence all day and had to be taken to hospital. Amazingly, there were guffaws in the court. It just gave the court a reason to find everything against the ill person. All medical evidence was apparently ignored. Only in the Isle of Man but possibly in some corruption ridden third world country too. Mmmmmh, I think I might just take manxman up on that bet . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I don't think it had air con. (it was February, so a bit academic), but it was a large court, sufficient to hold 20 plus defence lawyers and the prosecution team, jury, SFO, police and one little old lady who I think was the wife of one of the accused. Air was not the issue, but the issue here is that Mr Kelly need not himself have asked for an adjournment, but his representative, if he had one, should have done. And if he should have done so, the Deemster should, with one whack of his gavel, stifled any guffaws with a threat of contempt of court. Love the Island very much and hate to criticse it, but over recent weeks I have been coming to the conclusion that it really is Alice in Wonderland, no one really takes the things that ought to be taken seriously, seriously. But will spend huge amounts of effort and emotion over the inconsequentials. Perhaps that is why I love it so much, so shouldn't analyse any further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumble Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 From what I've read, this just seems to be an unhappy coincidence. Hot weather, inadequate ventilation/cooling, stressed witness and tense courtroom. After months of waiting for his day in court, I doubt Mr Kelly would have said anything about feeling unable to continue for fear of causing further delays...which now seem almost inevitable anyway, sadly. I hope he makes a full and speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringwraith Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Why do witnesses have to stand? Because it's harder to lie standing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Why do witnesses have to stand? Because it's harder to lie standing up. Obviously that doesn't work. MHKs stand up to reply to questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman8180 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I was going to refrain, honestly I was... Firstly, my best wishes to Mr Kelly. I do hope he is well enough soon, not only to be in a position to complete his own evidence, but also to stand trial for the criminal activities of which he is accused. If we call for justice, we must recognise that as well as a witness, he is also a defendant. Maybe this also added to the levels of stress the 'poor man' has been under for the past months. I also find myself wondering what the reaction would have been, or even would be, if the other defendant were to fall ill and cause an adjournment in the case. Perhaps we would see sympathy replaced with cynicism and yet more conspiracy theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringwraith Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Why do witnesses have to stand? Because it's harder to lie standing up. Obviously that doesn't work. MHKs stand up to reply to questions. Practice makes perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langness Walker Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I was going to refrain, honestly I was... Firstly, my best wishes to Mr Kelly. I do hope he is well enough soon, not only to be in a position to complete his own evidence, but also to stand trial for the criminal activities of which he is accused. If we call for justice, we must recognise that as well as a witness, he is also a defendant. Maybe this also added to the levels of stress the 'poor man' has been under for the past months. I also find myself wondering what the reaction would have been, or even would be, if the other defendant were to fall ill and cause an adjournment in the case. Perhaps we would see sympathy replaced with cynicism and yet more conspiracy theories. I have been following these discussions for the last few days and have up to now, refrained from making any comments. Well spoken, Manxman, I could not have said it better myself. My best wishes to Mr. Kelly and hope he makes a speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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