Israel

[Rog]

The people of Lebanon didn't elect Hamas, the people of Lebanon went through the Cedar revolution which isolated Hezbollah and drove its sponsor, Syria, from the country. The people of Lebanon voted for peace. If you think northern Lebanon: the Christians and Druze etc choose and now they pay you're a fool.

 

The whole point is that althgough troops were pulled back in reality Syria DIDN'T get out, and hezballah were the controlling influence in The Lebanon.

 

What will be interesting is after this war is over and there are just smoking piles of hezballah dead to see just how many non-hezballah have been killed or injured. Not many is my guess. If there's one thing that the enemies of Israel are very very good at it's lying. Remember the alleged massacres at the “refugee" camps in Israel when the troops went in to neutralise the bomb makers and gun men? Once the dust settled there was shown to have been NO massacre.

 

I remain utterly delighted to see the pictures of "pay back time" coming out of the place.

[Jacqueline]

I remain utterly delighted to see the pictures of "pay back time" coming out of the place.

 

Not for the first time I am revulsed by what you say. You are talking about human beings and I cannot put into words how I feel right now.

 

Delighted?

 

All I feel is disgust and horror that human beings are dying. I don't give a toss who they are, where they come from or what they believe in.

 

Please, please keep your horrible views to yourself and other like minded souls. I'm sure there are none on here who would wish to share in your 'delight'. :-(

[Chinahand]

What will be interesting is after this war is over and there are just smoking piles of hezballah dead to see just how many non-hezballah have been killed or injured. Not many is my guess. If there's one thing that the enemies of Israel are very very good at it's lying. Remember the alleged massacres at the “refugee" camps in Israel when the troops went in to neutralise the bomb makers and gun men? Once the dust settled there was shown to have been NO massacre.

 

I agree there wasn't a massacre, but I think this UN Report is the most authoritative account of what happened in early 2002.

 

23 Israeli soldiers killed in Jenin, 52 Palestinians of which 20 were children under 15 or people over 50.

 

I'm sure we'll agree it wasn't a tea party either ... 38% casualties non combatants. I read today that about 25 Israelis and 250 Lebanese had died ... care to guess what percentage were civillian?

 

 

(a) A total of 497 Palestinians were killed in the course of the IDF reoccupation of Palestinian area A from 1 March to 7 May 2002 and in the immediate aftermath;

 

Palestinian health authorities and the Palestinian Red Crescent Society reported approximately 1,447 wounded with some 538 live-ammunition injuries (for the same period);

 

[c] Round-the-clock curfews were imposed in cities, refugee camps, towns and villages affecting an estimated 1 million persons; over 600,000 of them remained under a one-week curfew, while 220,000 urban residents lived under curfew regimes for a longer duration and without vital supplies and access to first aid;

 

(d) Severe internal and external closures continue to paralyse normal economic activity, and movement of persons and goods throughout the West Bank; in the Gaza Strip, the unprecedented 38-day-long internal closures divided the Strip into three intermittently isolated areas;

 

(e) Protracted curfews, compounded by severe restrictions on commercial circulation of supplies, rendered the food security situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory precarious: over 630,000 persons or roughly 20 per cent of the resident population were considered food security vulnerable;

 

(f) Food deficit was increasingly observed in various regions of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the Gaza food market being particularly distorted. Restrictions on food imports resulted in a mild increase in the overall food price level in the West Bank and in a considerable rise (up to 25-30%) of prices for staple commodities in the Gaza Strip;

 

(g) Over 2,800 refugee housing units were damaged and 878 homes were demolished or destroyed during the reporting period, leaving more than 17,000 people homeless or in need of shelter rehabilitation;

 

(h) Non-refugee housing in Nablus, Ramallah, Bethlehem, Jenin town and Tulkarm and a number of surrounding villages sustained damage ranging from minor to structural;

 

(i) Students in eight West Bank districts were prevented from attending school. It is estimated that, during the reporting period, some 11,000 classes were missed and 55,000 teaching sessions were lost;

 

(j) Fifty Palestinian schools were damaged by Israeli military action, of which 11 were totally destroyed, 9 were vandalized, 15 used as military outposts and another 15 as mass arrest and detention centres.

 

...

 

53. That the Israeli Defence Forces encountered heavy Palestinian resistance is not in question. Nor is the fact that Palestinian militants in the camp, as elsewhere, adopted methods which constitute breaches of international law that have been and continue to be condemned by the United Nations. Clarity and certainty remain elusive, however, on the policy and facts of the IDF response to that resistance. The Government of Israel maintains that IDF "clearly took all possible measures not to hurt civilian life" but were confronted with "armed terrorists who purposely concealed themselves among the civilian population". However, some human rights groups and Palestinian eyewitnesses assert that IDF soldiers did not take all possible measures to avoid hurting civilians, and even used some as human shields.

 

54. As IDF penetrated the camp, the Palestinian militants reportedly moved further into its centre. The heaviest fighting reportedly occurred between 5 and 9 April, resulting in the largest death tolls on both sides. There are reports that during this period IDF increased missile strikes from helicopters and the use of bulldozers - including their use to demolish homes and allegedly bury beneath them those who refused to surrender - and engaged in "indiscriminate" firing. IDF lost 14 soldiers, 13 in a single engagement on 9 April. IDF incurred no further fatalities in Jenin after 9 April.

 

...

 

56. Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also place the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged.

 

57. It is impossible to determine with precision how many civilians were among the Palestinian dead. The Government of Israel estimated during the incursion that there were "only dozens killed in Jenin … and the vast majority of them bore arms and fired upon [iDF] forces". Israeli officials informed United Nations personnel that they believed that, of the 52 dead, 38 were armed men and 14 were civilians. The Palestinian Authority has acknowledged that combatants were among the dead, and has named some of them, but has placed no precise estimates on the breakdown. Human rights organizations put the civilian toll closer to 20 - Human Rights Watch documented 22 civilians among the 52 dead, while Physicians for Human Rights noted that "children under the age of 15 years, women and men over the age of 50 years accounted for nearly 38 per cent of all reported fatalities".

[Tugger]

I think I'd rather enjoy meeting Rog in person.

[Rog]

I think I'd rather enjoy meeting Rog in person.

 

You would learn a great deal.

[localyokel]

I remain utterly delighted to see the pictures of "pay back time" coming out of the place.

 

Yeah pictures of dead babies and women give me a hard-on as well.

 

Get real.

[Jacqueline]

If there's one thing that the enemies of Israel are very very good at it's lying. Remember the alleged massacres at the “refugee" camps in Israel when the troops went in to neutralise the bomb makers and gun men? Once the dust settled there was shown to have been NO massacre.

 

You need to spend some time revisiting the case of Harry Elmer Barnes.

[LoneWolf]

Palestinian Prime Minister Haniyeh has no doubts as to the purpose of the current struggle.

He has shown no hesitation in proclaiming it as "not only about Gaza and the West Bank. It is

about a wider national conflict that requires the vindication of Palestinian rights."

Haniyeh was making a reference to the Palestinian objective of eradicating the State of Israel.

He was positioning that objective as the motivation for the attacks on Israel which precipitated

the current situation.

It is hardly surprising Israel reacted in the manner it did against terrorists who base themselves

in Gaza and receive support from the Palestinian authorities.

 

Hezbollah are another terrorist group, based in Lebanon who took a unilateral decision to attack

Israel in support of the Gaza based terrorists.

We should all note both of these terror groups are based in independent Arab States. There is no question

of them fighting an occupying force or fighting for freedom. Its worth repeating .. both terrorist groups

are based in independent Arab States.

Both terrorist groups made unprovoked attacks on Israel from independent Arab States.

I am not passing an opinion simply stating facts.

 

In the case of Hezbollah we are addressing an organisation which is much more than the image

conjured up by the term "terrorist group".

I have seen comparisons made with the IRA. Nothing could be further removed from the facts.

Hezbollah receives support from Iran and Syria. It participates in the Lebanese parliament and holds

14 seats. it has from time to time held cabinet seats in the Lebanese Government.

Hezbollah operates schools and hospitals and has effectively become a State within a State.

Its armed wing is stronger than the Lebanese military and it has formidable stocks of weapons

which it is inclined to use at frequent and regular intervals. Its weapons include up to 10,000

Katyusha rockets. CLICK

Hezbollah's stated intention is to eliminate Israel and establish a fundamentalist Muslim regime in Lebanon.

We can gauge a good measure of its status inside Lebanon by observing the Leabanese response to demands for the disarming of Hezbollah. .... There has been no response.

Its overseas activities have included the bombing of a Jewish community centre in Argentina which killed 85.

Hezbollah are the chief suspects in the 1983 Beirut bombing which killed 241 US Marines.

It was Hezbollah who bombed the Khobar towers in Saudi.

 

I have mentioned all this to demonstrate Hezbollah are a long way removed from anyone's idea of an IRA type terrorist group. They have all the apparatus, and non of the legitimacy, of a State.

 

This is the organisation, based in Lebanon, which has launched periodic attacks on Israel for the last 6 years and, most recently,launched a formidable series of attacks on Israeli towns, in support of Palestinian terrorists based in Gaza. This latest campaign including the cross border attack in which two Israeli soldiers were captured.

 

All this would be very serious for any nation state. Israel have responded in an entirely understandable and

appropriate manner. It is difficult to imagine how else they might have been expected to respond. Israel have not been the aggressor although we might expect a barrage of propoganda intended to persuade us all otherwise.

 

It is now clear that the attacks on Israel, from Palestine and Lebanon based aggressors, have changed the uneasy settlement which has existed for the last few years.

Israel could not reasonably be asked to accept a ceasefire which preserved the pre existing situation.

No nation state could reasonably be expected to settle for highly organised, state supported, hostile terror groups to be permanently established on its borders.

Dont expect a quick resolution.

[Lovenotfear]

Here is a very interesting interview with Noam Chomsky, on the current state of affairs in Israel.

Real player required, http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258

[P.K.]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

 

You Jingoistic Twat.

 

What do you think about this?

 

Why don't you find some pictures of dead Israeli kids too. So we can play tit for tat.

Sorry Mr Chinahand, but it looks like an IDF recruitment video to me. You've gone completely OTT about nothing.

 

I remain utterly delighted to see the pictures of "pay back time" coming out of the place.

 

Not for the first time I am revulsed by what you say. You are talking about human beings and I cannot put into words how I feel right now.

 

Delighted?

 

All I feel is disgust and horror that human beings are dying. I don't give a toss who they are, where they come from or what they believe in.

 

Please, please keep your horrible views to yourself and other like minded souls. I'm sure there are none on here who would wish to share in your 'delight'. :-(

You are so privileged that you cannot pass judgement. You have probably never been in a situation where evil terrorists are trying to kill you. If you had then I suspect you would play a different tune. In any event they are not human beings, they are targets. They are targets because they care not one jot for the sanctity of human life. Which is why they have no hesitation whatsoever in firing rockets indiscriminently into Israeli towns and cities in the hope of killing civilians. Any civilian - man, woman or child, they just don't care. Don't you find it hard to reconcile that a human being would do that? Because you should.

 

If you found vermin in your back yard you would not hesitate to have them destroyed. This is no different.

[joeyconcrete]

If you found vermin in your back yard you would not hesitate to have them destroyed. This is no different.

 

If you mean dropping bombs on my backyard, killing the vermin, my next door neighbours, the kids walking past and destroying my house and car - then you're probably right. There is no difference.

[Rog]

Here’s an abridged item relating to the ongoing pay-back that’s taking place.

 

It’s good to see that the cleansing of the filth from The Lebanon isn’t detracting from the good work being done in Gaza.

 

This is the latest in the three-week operation that began after hammas activists captured an Israeli soldier.

Israeli forces killed a number of hammas activists in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank city of Nablus on Wednesday as the army continued its offensive against terrorists.

 

A report just issued said that on Wednesday alone the Israeli army has carried out 168 air strikes and sent more than 600 shells against terrorist locations Gaza and palestinian hammas activists have fired at least 180 rockets into Israel.

 

(note by Rog --- It should be noted that whereas the firing by the Israeli IDF is targeted against specific terrorist sites these palestinian rockets are simply fired in the general direction of Israeli settlements)

 

100 assorted “palestinians” are reported to have been killed since the Gaza strike back against hammas terrorism began, plus an additional 14 on Wednesday. It is claimed that up to 30 of the 100 may have been under age 18.

 

On Wednesday, an IDF air strike located and attacked 20 terrorist gunmen as they were approaching IDF troops in a camp near the Israeli border. One terrorist was killed and 20 were wounded.

 

The IDF launched more air strikes throughout Wednesday night successfully killing two more hammas backed terrorists. The IDF confirmed carrying out several successful air strikes targeting terrorists and terrorist strongholds in the area.

 

It was reported by hammas that some 80 terrorists and other assorted activists had been killed or wounded.

An IDF spokesperson reported that five Israeli soldiers were wounded, however thankfully only two were in what might be considered to be a somewhat serious condition.

 

Also on Wednesday some 50 + IDF armored vehicles, including tanks and bulldozers, entered Nablus and demolished a hammas security compound and several other government buildings in a raid to capture militants involved with Hezbollah.

 

Three hammas activists were killed in fighting after troops surrounded the city's security headquarters. The three men belonged to a cell that was activated by hezballah and was planning attacks on Israel. Another terrorist died later Wednesday from his wounds.

 

The IDF army detained 150 “palestinian policemen” for questioning, The army said the arrests were aimed at identifying who among the detainees were operatives of local militant groups.

 

Gaza been alleged to be suffered from a sporadic shortage of fresh food supplies and fuel since the offensive began June 28.

 

The IDF confirmed that on Wednesday it once again opened crossings into Gaza to allow shipments of food and fuel. 145 food trucks entered Gaza through the Karni crossing, while 132,000 gallons of diesel fuel, 24,000 gallons of gasoline and 175 tons of cooking gas were sent through a pipeline.

[Albert Tatlock]

It’s good to see that the cleansing of the filth from The Lebanon isn’t detracting from the good work being done in Gaza.

Oh Rog, it's off to 'Gehenna' for you methinks.

 

Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17

Not to oppress the weak Ex. 22:21

Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16

Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18

Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18

Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num. 15:39

Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property Deut. 19:14

Not to kidnap Ex. 20:13

Not to rob openly Lev. 19:13

Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession Ex. 20:14

Not to desire another's possession Deut. 5:18

[Rog]

It’s good to see that the cleansing of the filth from The Lebanon isn’t detracting from the good work being done in Gaza.

Oh Rog, it's off to 'Gehenna' for you methinks.

 

Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17

Not to oppress the weak Ex. 22:21

Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16

Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18

Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18

Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num. 15:39

Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property Deut. 19:14

Not to kidnap Ex. 20:13

Not to rob openly Lev. 19:13

Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession Ex. 20:14

Not to desire another's possession Deut. 5:18

 

Won't work for me old son. I became a secular Jew years ago.

[Lonan3]

I remain utterly delighted to see the pictures of "pay back time" coming out of the place.

 

In the past, I've occasionally enjoyed arguing with you, Rog. Even though I've never agreed with your extreme right-wing views, I've been prepared to accept that they were genuinely held and indulge in some gentle 'winding up' for the purposes of stimulating debate.

Some of the statements you've made on this subject, however, have revealed you as having the intellect of a retarded gnat when it comes to anything concerning Israel.

Your triumphalism is not only sickening, it also does a great deal to undermine any feelings of sympathy that outsiders may have felt for the plight of a small country surrounded by enemies. For someone who cares so much about Israel, you don't appear to realise how much ill-considered and arrogant comments such as the ones you have made in this thread can damage perception of it.

I don't think I'm likely to respond to any more of your comments on this subject - you're too blinded by blood lust to make any intelligent or useful contributions to it.

 

From today's Times:

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2277822_2,00.html

 

Britain fears that Israel’s assault on Hezbollah is failing to cripple the guerrilla group and that continued bombardment will bring huge civilian casualties in Lebanon for little military gain.

 

The rising concern that any further Israeli military action could intensify the crisis, expressed by senior officials yesterday, strikes a much more urgent tone than the American position, which accepts a continued Israeli campaign to crush the Shia militant group.

 

Yesterday was the heaviest day for civilian casualties since Israel’s bombardment began last week, with at least 63 killed and scores more wounded. A total of 315 Lebanese, mostly civilians, have been killed and hundreds injured since the start of the Israeli offensive.

 

…But the need for Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, to appear tough at home might tempt him to continue even when the military value was slight, officials suggested.

 

THE TOLL

• In the nine days since fighting in Lebanon began

315 Lebanese killed

31 Israelis killed

• In the 25 days since first Israeli soldier kidnapped in Gaza

93 Palestinians killed

1 Israeli killed

• 500,000 the number of displaced people in Lebanon, Unicef says