Israel

[Rog]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being triumphal when you see – and more to the point enjoy – reports of your enemies being smashed and especially when it has been a long time in coming and is totally justified as is the case here.

 

Nor is there anything at all wrong with blood lust given the right circumstances. It’s about revenge, and that’s another thing that I fully endorse. Forgive the forgivable, take revenge for the unforgivable.

 

As for Israel, that country gets slated come what may. If there’s a terrorist attack people express angst about how terrible the situation is that causes such things.

 

If some piece of human excrement straps explosives on a kid, lies to them about ‘going to paradise’ and then cynically sends them to decimate Israeli civilians on a bus or in a crowded cafe even the wife of the British Prime Minister expresses ‘understanding’ for what they do.

 

Put bluntly, we’re dammned if we do and we’re dammned if we don’t so we might as well do what’s best for us.

[The Bastard]

You can hardly lecture Rog for triumphalism, just because you don't share the same viewpoint. Is it any different to triumphant British attitudes at the time of the Falklands ("Gotcha") or during the Gulf War, when many hundreds more civilians were killed than have died in the current conflict ?

 

It seems you're happy to sweep their deaths (including the killing of children) under the carpet so that you occupy the moral highground on an issue that you're not involved with.

 

It seems that to you it's all black and white, and you've made it clear that you're prepared to overlook the slaughter of israelis in the past simply so that you can draw a line for your judgement at the beginning of the current offensive.

 

And once again, we're bogged down with arguments that don't understand the difference between politics and religion.

[Lonan3]

You can hardly lecture Rog for triumphalism, just because you don't share the same viewpoint. Is it any different to triumphant British attitudes at the time of the Falklands ("Gotcha") or during the Gulf War, when many hundreds more civilians were killed than have died in the current conflict ?

 

It seems you're happy to sweep their deaths (including the killing of children) under the carpet so that you occupy the moral highground on an issue that you're not involved with.

 

It seems that to you it's all black and white, and you've made it clear that you're prepared to overlook the slaughter of israelis in the past simply so that you can draw a line for your judgement at the beginning of the current offensive.

 

And once again, we're bogged down with arguments that don't understand the difference between politics and religion.

 

Without wishing to go into it too deeply, the simple fact is that I deplore any kind of triumphalism that involves the killing of fellow human beings.

Both of the examples you name - Falklands and Gulf - were, in my opinion, totally unnecessary, unjustified and avoidable conflicts.

If Israel, and it's supporters, choose to measure the extent of their culture by the number of enemies killed then that is up to them. I certainly don't wish to claim any kind of moral high ground, I just hope that sooner or later we'll all see the folly of killing each other and rejoicing in it (a la the Thatcher creature).

[Rog]

Do you have the slightest idea of what drives hammas and their fellow travellers? Or what their declared and immutable objective is?

 

Faced with an enemy for whom compromise is quite simply impossible, for whom a negotiated peace can only mean the place, date, and time of your destruction, what alternative is there other than take them out.

 

These are not people with 21st. century values. These are people driven by the morality of the warring desert savages from the 7th. Century. The only way to deal with them is to contain them or neutralise them. We tried to contain them, they grew in strength during their containment and attacked once more, now they must once again be culled and contained.

 

The real issue is of course whilst the attention of the West is being diverted by the cynical use of this bunch of human curs, what is Iran up to as it’s their bloody hand along with Syria who are the real driving force.

[P.K.]

If you found vermin in your back yard you would not hesitate to have them destroyed. This is no different.

If you mean dropping bombs on my backyard, killing the vermin, my next door neighbours, the kids walking past and destroying my house and car - then you're probably right. There is no difference.

Nice try but no cigar.

 

The IDF are trying to avoid civilian casualties. Hezbollah are deliberately trying to cause them. Perhaps the subtle difference escapes you?

[Tugger]

They're clearly not trying very hard. Check out Lonan3's figures.

[Chinahand]

Sorry Mr Chinahand, but it looks like an IDF recruitment video to me. You've gone completely OTT about nothing.

Its not the recruitment video, its the glee Rog is showing for war and death that sticks in my throat. Maybe, just maybe this little war will bring stability and peace to Israel, then in retrospect I will agree that it was worthwhile. But any war is a nasty business and I think should be entered into with regret and sadness. If you are a soldier I'd have thought you'd agree with that. Jingoisticly going on about revenge and how happy you are about death and destruction is a way to continue wars and violence, not a way to end them, unless you think the only way to end wars is to kill all your enemies and their children and their children's children etc.

 

 

In any event they are not human beings, they are targets. They are targets because they care not one jot for the sanctity of human life. Which is why they have no hesitation whatsoever in firing rockets indiscriminently into Israeli towns and cities in the hope of killing civilians. Any civilian - man, woman or child, they just don't care. Don't you find it hard to reconcile that a human being would do that? Because you should.

 

If you found vermin in your back yard you would not hesitate to have them destroyed. This is no different.

 

As I've asked Rog who is the they here? It is precisely because Israel is being so wide ranging in its attacks that it is open to the claim its actions are not proportional. Too often what is targeted is infrastructure manned by civillians remote from the Hezbollah camps. Israel is most categorically not limiting its targeting to front line attacks on Hezbollah. The fractured nature of Lebanon means alot of those targetted are not Hezbollah's allies; in fact they are often their enemies who fought them for many years in the civil war. They had been able to bring that war to an end and start a flawed political process which had started to disarm Lebanons factions. All of that progress is at risk of being destroyed by what is occuring now.

 

25 Israeli civillians deliberately killed by terrorists I totally agree terrible and wrong, but far far more Lebanese civillians are dead in response. You'll shrug your shoulders and say collateral damage ... regrettable, but what could the IDF do ... but the Laws of War put it the other way round. In selecting targets it is a responsibility to take account the civillian deaths the attack will cause and these deaths must be proportional to the objective. Body counts are crude and too often used to justify actions, they should be used to restrain them. I am not claiming all the 250 lebanese dead are civillians, but I am certain something like 30% of them are. Do the maths: The old testament says an eye for an eye, not 3 eyes for every Israeli one.

[P.K.]

They're clearly not trying very hard. Check out Lonan3's figures.

Total tosh. Like the number of dead is an indication of how hard they're trying to avoid civilian casualties. Care to explain your measurement criteria?

 

With the huge firepower advantage the IDF has it's probably a tribute to modern targetting technology that the Lebanese "civilian" casualties are as low as they are. Bearing in mind how many strikes there have been that is. They sure seem to know what they are doing. It's all that practice I guess.

 

Sorry Mr Chinahand, but it looks like an IDF recruitment video to me. You've gone completely OTT about nothing.

Its not the recruitment video, its the glee Rog is showing for war and death that sticks in my throat. Maybe, just maybe this little war will bring stability and peace to Israel, then in retrospect I will agree that it was worthwhile. But any war is a nasty business and I think should be entered into with regret and sadness. If you are a soldier I'd have thought you'd agree with that. Jingoisticly going on about revenge and how happy you are about death and destruction is a way to continue wars and violence, not a way to end them, unless you think the only way to end wars is to kill all your enemies and their children and their children's children etc.

War is a dirty, nasty, miserable business. But at the end of the day the job of the IDF is to defend it's nationals and kill the enemy. For all I know Rog has had some close to him murdered by Hezbollah. If it was me I would cheer as well.

 

In any event they are not human beings, they are targets. They are targets because they care not one jot for the sanctity of human life. Which is why they have no hesitation whatsoever in firing rockets indiscriminently into Israeli towns and cities in the hope of killing civilians. Any civilian - man, woman or child, they just don't care. Don't you find it hard to reconcile that a human being would do that? Because you should.

 

If you found vermin in your back yard you would not hesitate to have them destroyed. This is no different.

 

As I've asked Rog who is the they here? It is precisely because Israel is being so wide ranging in its attacks that it is open to the claim its actions are not proportional. Too often what is targeted is infrastructure manned by civillians remote from the Hezbollah camps. Israel is most categorically not limiting its targeting to front line attacks on Hezbollah. The fractured nature of Lebanon means alot of those targetted are not Hezbollah's allies; in fact they are often their enemies who fought them for many years in the civil war. They had been able to bring that war to an end and start a flawed political process which had started to disarm Lebanons factions. All of that progress is at risk of being destroyed by what is occuring now.

It's very simple. Leave Israel alone and they will leave you alone. Attack Israel and the response is ALWAYS the same. Let's just call it robust and leave it there. ALL of Israel's neighbours know this. They bring it down on themselves.

 

25 Israeli civillians deliberately killed by terrorists I totally agree terrible and wrong, but far far more Lebanese civillians are dead in response. You'll shrug your shoulders and say collateral damage ... regrettable, but what could the IDF do ... but the Laws of War put it the other way round. In selecting targets it is a responsibility to take account the civillian deaths the attack will cause and these deaths must be proportional to the objective. Body counts are crude and too often used to justify actions, they should be used to restrain them. I am not claiming all the 250 lebanese dead are civillians, but I am certain something like 30% of them are. Do the maths: The old testament says an eye for an eye, not 3 eyes for every Israeli one.

See above the response to Tugger's nonsense.

 

I go back to my post earlier:

 

The ones I feel sorry for are the Maronite Christians, the Sunnis and the Druze. They don't want an armed Hezbollah terrorist organisation in their country either but their infrastructure is being wrecked to try and turn Shia opinion against the nutters firing rockets.

 

Because the Lebanese state is so weak and their army mostly Shia i.e. Hezbollah supporters, if they can't be stopped from within then it looks like a UN action to police the south of the country.

 

So I guess from an Isreali standpoint the more they bomb the infrastructure the more pressure goes on Hezbollah supporters and the more pressure is applied on the UN to do something. Looks like a win/win from here.

I'm still sure that is the intention. With the UN policing the south Israel will be left alone. Which is all they want from Lebanon.

[Tugger]

I'm sure you would be cheering - hurrah for the deaths of innocent Arab children eh?

 

I do hope that you are just as vocal, say, out in the boozer with your celebration of the deaths of innocents. It would be nice to see the results

[P.K.]

I'm sure you would be cheering - hurrah for the deaths of innocent Arab children eh?

Assuming that those who understand the Isreali action also have to lack compassion really is very very stupid.

[Rog]

Who are they here Rog ... Don't you understand or accept that thousands of people who just want to keep their heads down and get on with their lives have had their loved ones killed, and their homes and livelihoods destroyed.

 

THEY are those 'people' who either voted hammas into office or those terrorists who refuse to engage in genuine peace negotiations with Israel.

 

It is THEM who by their actions must bear the responsibility for bringing the war into areas were innocent and otherwise uninvolved people live.

 

It is not the fault of the IDF or of any forces associated with the action being taken by Israel who are the guilty parties or are responsible for the deaths of the innocent. It is the cowardly filth who are committed to the destruction of Israel and who are engaged in or are supporting the terrorist attacks deliberately targeting Israeli civilians.

 

That is who THEY are.

[Chinahand]

Palestinian Prime Minister Haniyeh has no doubts as to the purpose of the current struggle.

He has shown no hesitation in proclaiming it as "not only about Gaza and the West Bank. It is

about a wider national conflict that requires the vindication of Palestinian rights."

Haniyeh was making a reference to the Palestinian objective of eradicating the State of Israel.

 

LW I admit that events are maybe making this irrelevant but there has been alot of movement by Hamas about how a settlement may occur. I realize they aren't recognizing Israel, they may have an ambition of a united Palestine (which obviously would require Israel's elimination), but they are currently accepting the formation of a Palestinian state only on the occupied terretories. This is, I fully admit, an analogy too far, but Eire had (still has?) clauses in its constitution demanding a united Ireland. I'm not saying its the same thing, but the agreement was a HUGE movement forward.

 

I've not the time to dig any deeper, but these quotes show what was said and they involve both Haniyeh and the founder of Hamas ... I sincerely hope the current mess hasn't ruined these efforts by moderates to make their leaders see sense. For the conspiracy theorists out there some people will say either the nutters or Israel or both have engineered the current crisis to nix this agreement ... there is no doubt the new Israeli government and Hamas' moving goal posts are a part of the Great Game being played.

 

Reuters Report

 

Officials close to the negotiations said Abbas, of Fatah, and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, of Hamas, drafted a platform accepting a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, areas captured by Israel in a 1967 war.

 

Guardian Report

 

"This is not a direct recognition of Israel," said a founder of Hamas, Issa Ali Nashar. "The recognition is in the document, it is not Hamas saying it directly recognises Israel. There is recognition of resolutions by the UN (that recognise Israel) in the document."

 

Both terrorist groups made unprovoked attacks on Israel from independent Arab States.

I am not passing an opinion simply stating facts.

Just out of curiousity what independent Arab State is Hamas operating out of? I really think you are wrong about occupied territories ... I'm pretty certain Israel accepts its UN responsibilities as an Occupying Power and is monitored as such by the Red Cross/Red Cresent.

[Rog]

Define “occupied territories”.

 

That’s the rub. What they mean to you or me is totally different from what they mean to most “palestinians” and especially to hammas.

 

In any case, there IS a “palestinian state”. Jordan.

[Tugger]

I'm sure you would be cheering - hurrah for the deaths of innocent Arab children eh?

Assuming that those who understand the Isreali action also have to lack compassion really is very very stupid.

 

It appears from your statements and those of BNP Rog that it is entirely reasonable

[Rog]

I'm sure you would be cheering - hurrah for the deaths of innocent Arab children eh?

Assuming that those who understand the Isreali action also have to lack compassion really is very very stupid.

 

It appears from your statements and those of BNP Rog that it is entirely reasonable

Children have been and will continue to be killed and injured on both sides. The big “but” in this is that unlike the filth we don’t use our kids ad consumables by sending them in to blow themselves up in order to kill OUR kids and we don’t deliberately target their civilians and kids.

 

There is a cynical viewpoint of course that every dead arab kid is one less potential future terrorist.

 

Seems hard? Seems a terrible thing to come out with?

 

I think it is as well.

 

What a shame that the ORIGINAL statement was made on a hammas website only recently when it showed dead Israeli kids following a bud bombing and a captiont that translated into “every dead jew baby is one less jew adult”.