Israel

[P.K.]

Hang on a minute. Whether you tell them or not, and people who have nothing to do with this conflict do not leave their homes, it is a WAR CRIME to attack those people (either individuals or their property).

The IDF is after Hezbollah. They will avoid civilian casualties if they can. So they will attack bunkers, sangers etc etc and avoid villages if they can. Unlike Hezbollah the IDF understands the importance not so much of humanitarian gestures but the bad press and loss of support that goes with a complete clusterfuck. By the way, do you think Hezbollah care that firing their rockets at Israeli civilians is a WAR CRIME? Just checking......

Again - sucking fighters into an area which is civilian by nature and then attacking everything that moves in that area indiscrimantely is a WAR CRIME.

If it's armed and shooting at you then dropping it is NOT a WAR CRIME!

You are generalising by assuming all of the civilian population that are left in this 'killing zone' of yours will have this view and are therefore open to attack. Again this is a WAR CRIME.

 

You don't seem to have learned much P.K. in your time in the forces. If you remember your green card, yellow card etc. soldiers have an individual responsibility under national and international law i.e. individual soldiers can be accused of WAR CRIMES whether following orders or not.

 

Legitimacy under international law is key here.

Well, international law doesn't seem to have had much effect on stopping Hezbollah committing a WAR CRIME as you like to put it. So what is Israel to do? Stand by and watch it's civilians being killed by a bunch of murderous terrorists? Especially when all they see is politicians like you wringing their hands and saying how awful it all is and how it's against international law and how they should all stop and actually achieving nothing. Because all they understand is force.

 

In many parts of the world power still comes from the barrel of a gun. This is one of them. Politicians make difficult decisions and the military get hard, ugly things done. Not because they want to, but because they have to.

 

As for legitimacy under international law - there is a UN resolution demanding the disarming of Hezbollah. Such a shame it wasn't enforced before this latest particularly vicious round. Maybe you should expend your energies pillorying them for their lack of resolve.....

[LoneWolf]

In the 40th year of Israel’s unconscionable occupation of Palestinian territories, Israeli leaders have their agenda. What’s ours?

 

A total load of rubbish. There have never been any Palestinian territories for Israel to occupy.

 

well Ill tell you what .... lets see you provide some evidence that Israel is occupying Palestinian territory.

Im sure the Arabs would be over the moon for credible evidence.

The fact is there has never been any Palestinian territory. Israel is the wounded party here and people like you are merely parrotting Arab propoganda.

Get real. That means try arguing your case instead of posting ridiculous cartoons.

[Rog]

When does a civilian actually become a civilian?

 

When a hez-b'allah killer gets shot.

 

This is no police action, this is war. It's a war started by filth and who are now paying the price for it and worse yet making others pay the price that they must pay. The war crime is the positioning of firing points and so on in civilian areas, not the neutralisation of those firing points, bunkers, and stores.

 

We're doing good.

 

There is no negotiated peace possible in this war because the aras have sworn to destroy Israel as they interpret the land on which it is founded as an islamic waaf. At best an armistice is all that could be hoped for.

 

In fact that is all that there has been between Israel and The Lebanon since the '47 war, simply an armistice. But an armistice that Israel has never broken unless attacked first, and even then only after substantive and concerted attacks have been made against them.

 

Like I say, we’re doing good.

[Tugger]

Here's a link to some of the GOOD that Rog is so delighted with:

 

"Family blasted on road to safety....

 

Minutes before the Guardian's car arrived, trailing a Red Cross ambulance on its way to other civilian wounded in another town, an Israeli missile pierced the roof of the Sha'itas' white van. Three passengers sitting in the third row were killed instantly, including Ali's grandmother. Sixteen other passengers were wounded. In recent days, families like the Sha'itas are bearing the brunt of Israel's air campaign and its efforts to rid the area of civilians before ground operations"

 

Rog and PK must be wetting their pants in glee!

[P.K.]

Prat. As I have said before supporters of neither side have a monopoly on compassion. I guess it's something you just don't understand. Of course it's a tragedy but that is what all wars are all about. I should imagine they were mistaken for a bunch of Hezbollah nutters heading for (hopefully) martyrdom. It's a very good example of just how awful war is, which is why armed conflict should always be avoided.

 

So what on earth do the nutters firing rockets at Israeli civilians think they are achieving? Come on Tugger, you've lived there, why are these idiots bringing down the totally expected Israeli response on the long-suffering civilian population? You're rabidly anti-Israel, what does Hezbollah think it will get from killing Israeli civilians? The "defence" of Lebanon perhaps?

 

I suspect you're as blinded to the reality as they are....

[Rog]

The Israeli’s had issued a warning for non-combatants to leave the upcoming theatre of conflict.

 

This group of people left it VERY late, possibly because the family head was a member of hes-b’allah and didn’t expect that the Israelis would be doing as well as they (thankfully) are.

 

HE put his family in the firing line, it’s HIS fault, a fault shared by hez-b’allah for their Iranian and Syrian backed attack on a free nation.

 

Meantime I remain utterly delighted that the war is progressing so well, but saddened that so many Israeli people have died as a consequence of the unprovoked attack on Israel by cowards who hide behind their families and any other civilians that they can utilise as shields or propaganda fodder in the manner that is now so typical of how they conduct themselves.

 

And yes, Tugger, I am nearly wetting my pants with glee!

[Tugger]

Indeed you are - I mean, the world's just a better place without that dead grandmother and children, eh? And they were, after all, driving a VERY suspicious minivan "possibly because the family head was a member of hes-b'allah", but probably not.

 

Honestly, it's great that everyone can see the type of person that is supporting the Israeli action. It makes everything that much clearer

[Rog]

Indeed you are - I mean, the world's just a better place without that dead grandmother and children, eh? And they were, after all, driving a VERY suspicious minivan "possibly because the family head was a member of hes-b'allah", but probably not.

 

Honestly, it's great that everyone can see the type of person that is supporting the Israeli action. It makes everything that much clearer

 

There are times when the source of an insult turns it into a compliment.

[Albert Tatlock]

In the eyes of the law it does not matter 'how right you think you are or were'. The law is the law, and international law and a number of conventions agreed by the majority of civilised countries, are clearly being broken.

 

To fight rats does not mean you have to become a rat yourself. To do so begs the question...in this so called 'war on terror', who or what are we really fighting for? Remember that Bush and Blair will be gone in two years leaving the civilised world a mess that will take years to recover from, with the US and UK having little respect in the Middle East in future negotiations.

 

Meanwhile, with current US backing, Israel makes no friends in Europe with these actions, and they will need the Europeans to help negotiate the future. Instead of seeking longer term stability, while 'the policeman's back is turned' Israel is pursuing this short term venture which will only lead to further isolation, and in reality, a trebling of the numbers of people in the Middle East who would do her harm in the future.

[P.K.]

Come off it Mr Tatlock. Hezbollah attacked Israel and they are responding in their usual robust manner. We've all seen it time and time again. Some people are calling the Israeli response disproportionate. Unfortunately that is a subjective term and it's not the IDF's fault that the Hezbollah infrastructure is (probably deliberately) in civilian areas. And they are risking higher casualties to warn the civilian population to get out while they can to avoid civilian casualties. Unlike the terrorist rats of Hezbollah who are deliberately targeting civilians.

 

Come on Tugger, I'm still waiting for one of your typically well-balanced and well thought out responses to:

So what on earth do the nutters firing rockets at Israeli civilians think they are achieving? Come on Tugger, you've lived there, why are these idiots bringing down the totally expected Israeli response on the long-suffering civilian population? You're rabidly anti-Israel, what does Hezbollah think it will get from killing Israeli civilians? The "defence" of Lebanon perhaps?

[Albert Tatlock]

Some people are calling the Israeli response disproportionate.

MOST PEOPLE (the majority) are calling the Israeli response disproportionate. The United States was alone in voting against the resolution. Ten of the 15 Security Council nations voted in favor, while Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained.

And they are risking higher casualties to warn the civilian population to get out while they can to avoid civilian casualties.

Whether they are risking higher casulaties or not is irrelevant - it is still a war crime.

[Rog]

Israel’s response against hezb’allah IS disproportionate, there’s no escaping the fact.

 

We better just accept the fact. It’s inescapable, we can’t try to pretend we’ve been fighting on the basis of “apples and apples” any longer.

 

The truth is unavoidable, we better either accept it or do something about it.

 

 

There. I’ve admitted it.

 

 

Happy now?

 

 

It’s disproportionate because all Israel is trying to do is to neutralise the hezb’allah filth and the hammas filth whereas what both hezb’allah and hammas are trying to destroy Israel and drive the population into the sea. Or kill them, the terrorists don’t really mind They’re willing to negotiate. On that only though. .

 

Maybe it’s time Israel engaged in a proportionate war and set about a program that wasn’t centred about trying to neutralise the terrorism that is attacking Israel but instead destroy the whole population of people from which the terrorism comes.

 

How about letting them have the whole of the West Bank in spite of our having taken it during our reply to the war waged against us.

 

Then how about US waging indiscriminate war on all and sundry that get in the range of OUR weapons!

 

Never mind aiming for the firing points, never mind aiming at the bunkers, the headquarters, the army command posts, the communications facilities, just random attacks. And above all else, NEVER give any innocent civilians the opportunity to get out of the theatre of battle.

 

I LIKE the idea of Israel ceasing this disproportionate war. I LIKE the idea of Israel engaging in a truly proportionate war.

 

Oh yes, I do like the idea of that.

 

Our enemies wouldn’t though.

[Tugger]

Prat. As I have said before supporters of neither side have a monopoly on compassion. I guess it's something you just don't understand. Of course it's a tragedy but that is what all wars are all about. I should imagine they were mistaken for a bunch of Hezbollah nutters heading for (hopefully) martyrdom. It's a very good example of just how awful war is, which is why armed conflict should always be avoided.

 

So what on earth do the nutters firing rockets at Israeli civilians think they are achieving? Come on Tugger, you've lived there, why are these idiots bringing down the totally expected Israeli response on the long-suffering civilian population? You're rabidly anti-Israel, what does Hezbollah think it will get from killing Israeli civilians? The "defence" of Lebanon perhaps?

 

I suspect you're as blinded to the reality as they are....

 

I don't know what they think they're achieving. I'm not a member of the Hezbollah leadership. Perhaps you can check out their press releases and find out.

 

I'm not rabidly anti-Israel at all, but you ARE stupid

[Tugger]

Oh and that minibus full of dead Lebanese was clearly DELIBERATELY targetted, so let's drop the charade that all civilian casualties at the hands of the IDF are accidental, eh...

[Albert Tatlock]

Happy now?

No. Do you really want a peace Rog? It's not about winning an argument as to whether you think it's disproportionate or not, it's about what it's always been about: getting people sat around a table, agreeing borders and access to religous sites, disarming, getting trade going and all living around each other with an acceptable peace. Non of which can start, IMHO, until there is at least a ceasefire - and for each day that this continues adds an additional year to the day this whole mess will be finally (if ever) sorted out.

 

A solution will only be achieved through negotiations and agreement. If that requires an international peace/police force for now, and that means me or my family have to risk our lives for a bunch of hypocritical religeous fanatics on both sides (thou shall not kill - shoot to kill!) you can count me out. People like you have to sort this out Rog and you are doing exactly the opposite, with the US doing nothing but fuelling you with the means to dig a deeper hole for yourselves. The reality is that a distance of 20 miles will be nothing in a few years as technology and access to that technology progresses.

 

This action is brainless, pointless and the logic of WW1, the carpet bombing of Vietnam and Germany, and from the dark ages. It makes anyone who is a decent human feel ashamed to be a human being. Stop and talk.