Israel

[Rog]

Oh and that minibus full of dead Lebanese was clearly DELIBERATELY targetted, so let's drop the charade that all civilian casualties at the hands of the IDF are accidental, eh...

 

Who's to say that they WERE civilians? Hezb'allah terrorists don't generally go around wearing lablels.

 

You're not doing verry well Tugger, unlike the IDF who are doing a great job and more power to their elbow say I.

[Tugger]

I'm doing just fine, ta, and only in your eyes and those of the IDF does "Driving while Arab" constitute a capital offence.

 

If the IDF are going all out to turn the world against them by behaving like murderous bastards, then I agree, they are doing a great job.

[Rog]

I'm doing just fine, ta, and only in your eyes and those of the IDF does "Driving while Arab" constitute a capital offence.

 

If the IDF are going all out to turn the world against them by behaving like murderous bastards, then I agree, they are doing a great job.

 

I've seen murderous bastards and believe me, the IDf don't fall into that catagory.

[Chinahand]

Oh and that minibus full of dead Lebanese was clearly DELIBERATELY targetted, so let's drop the charade that all civilian casualties at the hands of the IDF are accidental, eh...

 

Tugger, I think there is a fundamental disconnect between your contributions and PK's and Rog's. And to be blunt I find PK's and Rog's more thought provoking and worthy of consideration ... though I often find Rog's posts extremely distasteful.

 

It seems that there is little doubt that the minibus was deliberately targeted.

 

However was it deliberately targeted when it was known it was a civilian vehicle?

 

I very much doubt it. I do not know how you can say with such confidence that these civilian casualties weren't killed as a result of an accident? Not of targeting, but of target selection?

 

The only issues for me are

 

1) Did the people responsible for identifying the target and pulling the trigger etc take reasonable efforts to ensure it was a military target,

 

2) Did they have a reasonable expectation that the military advantages of taking out the target outweighed the risks to civilians of attacking it.

 

If they have done that, and it turns out they were wrong then its a sad consequence of war. If they did not do it then its a war crime.

 

War is a nasty business, and I am concerned that war crimes are being committed. There is no doubt what so ever Hizbollah have committed them. And I think there is a risk that Israel is committing them under point 2). But in the fog of war I am not yet convinced it can be shown they are recklessly attacking targets which could reasonably have been identified as civillian.

 

There is an issue that they are deliberately attacking dual use facilities saying the fact that the target has civillian uses is outweighed by the military ones and this directly links into 2) Israel is deliberately targeting civillian infrastructure because it is also of use to Hizbollah. If that that can be justified militarily its not a war crime.

 

The UN etc etc are saying that these attacks cannot be justified, Israel is saying they can be.

 

I say its bloody complicated and a nasty business.

 

Rog says Israel are deliberately going about conducting a war; they aren't being reckless about it, they're just getting on with it.

 

Tugger says Israel are deliberately attacking civilians.

 

I have to say I think Rog is closer to the mark than Tugger, but that doesn't mean war crimes aren't being committed.

[Celt]

I've been following this thread with interest and as I wasn't sure about how or why the " State of Israel " came about I did some research. I came up with some enlightning write ups. Some confirmed my thoughts whereas other gave me more to think about.

 

Firstly, It's Creation

 

It seems it was thought about around the turn off the 19th/20th Centuary but didn't come into being untill 1947. As it came into being only then and is only 60 yrs old, where was it before then I thought. Then I found this.

 

History

 

So it seems the the Jewish People have been getting Their arses kicked from Pillar to Post and back again for a couple of thousand years by whoever was the major player at the time. I still can't fathom out though where they originally came from, the Main Tribes and put a name to any paticular Country. So I searched further and found this which I though a good source.

 

More History

 

This, after a good read, gives more input as to how possible reasons why any conflicts can still exist today.

 

So some of my thoughts, not opinions as such, after reading up on it are as follows:-

 

As the Jewish People didn't have a Homeland as such for what reasons was there to make one ? It was talked about in the late 1900's but only seriously suggested around WW1 to bring them into the Allied side in the Middle East. It was then talked about, but nothing done about it, by the League of Nations in between Wars and then again during WW2, for the same reasons as before. Then afterwards by the UN culminating with the State of Israel.

 

I find it strange and puzzling however as to why GB would make Israel out of what was effectilly someone elses Country. A Country where the British were being pushed out from but the UN seemed to think replacing Britain with Israel would work. Beyond me that one. That has only replaced who is shooting at who, imo.

 

I can also now understand how the Jewish People would now fight tooth and nail to keep what is now their Homeland considering what their history shows.

 

However the US involvement in backing Israel. It seems that the US is the only major power who openly and fully backs the policies and their Overseas Aid package shows this. But why?

 

Is it because it helps the US economy or is it becuase the Major Banking and Monitery Backing for US Commerce is run by Jews? Or both even. If it wasn't for the US, Israel would have been pushed inot the Sea years ago.

 

As for embargos, I think it was a post from Rog who said if that did happen then the Jews would withdraw their money from any Country who did therefore possibly making any said Countires ecocomy unstable. Makes the above thought more feasible really.

 

As for who is right and who is wrong, both imo. But untill Israel gets out of bed with the US, I doubt if many if any Middle East country will accept them without a fight.

 

The US stance on Terrorism is widely published and applied but then Bush said the best piece.

 

Bush, on 911 stated:" Your are either with us against TERRORISM or you are against us & then he/they said: THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN". Adolph Hitler, using the same words in German said the same thing when the REICHSTAG was burned to the ground by the communist/socialist terrorist's of that day!

 

Ironic really.

 

As for War Crimes against Civilians.

 

Bomber Harris and the raid on Dresden comes to mind. 60,000 Civilians killed in 1 night. But then the Allies won.

 

Maybe We should wait and see who wins.

[Tugger]

Celt: I think that the majority of people in Israel at the time it declared its independence in 1948 (and based on those borders) were Jews. If you accept a basic right of self-determination (subject to suitable protections being in place for non-Jewish minorities which, thus far, seems to have been the case) in such circumstances, then it's fair enough that they got their own state. It was Israel's declaration of independence that brought it into existence more than UN resolution 181.

 

I think the US support for Israel has (at least) two facets. The first is that the Americans think that there is only one democracy in the Middle East, so they should, on moral and ideological grounds, support it (particularly as it was the victim of aggression from its inception). The second is that US supporters of Israel (which includes evangelical Christians as well as Jews) are extremely well-organised

[Illiam Dhone]

Hope this doesn't sound flippant (maybe humour gives us a break from the horror), but now that Mr Moffatt has told all Israeli ambassadors what to do, the fighting will surely end immediately.

[P.K.]

Some people are calling the Israeli response disproportionate.

MOST PEOPLE (the majority) are calling the Israeli response disproportionate. The United States was alone in voting against the resolution. Ten of the 15 Security Council nations voted in favor, while Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained.

It's still subjective. Who wouldn't feel sorry for the innocent (that is non-Hezbollah supporting) civilians caught up in this? Absolutely heartbreaking. But while there are prats like Tugger in complete denial that Hezbollah brought this down on the Lebanese for probably a Syrian or Iranian agenda then there simply can't be a debate.

 

And by the way I'm STILL waiting to hear your opinion on just how much influence the UN has with Hezbollah with a view to them desisting from deliberatly killing Israeli civilians. Here's a little clue for you - naff all. At the end of the day the IDF are going after those attacking Israel and killing her citizens. That's not a WAR CRIME by the way.

Prat. As I have said before supporters of neither side have a monopoly on compassion. I guess it's something you just don't understand. Of course it's a tragedy but that is what all wars are all about. I should imagine they were mistaken for a bunch of Hezbollah nutters heading for (hopefully) martyrdom. It's a very good example of just how awful war is, which is why armed conflict should always be avoided.

 

So what on earth do the nutters firing rockets at Israeli civilians think they are achieving? Come on Tugger, you've lived there, why are these idiots bringing down the totally expected Israeli response on the long-suffering civilian population? You're rabidly anti-Israel, what does Hezbollah think it will get from killing Israeli civilians? The "defence" of Lebanon perhaps?

 

I suspect you're as blinded to the reality as they are....

 

I don't know what they think they're achieving. I'm not a member of the Hezbollah leadership. Perhaps you can check out their press releases and find out.

 

I'm not rabidly anti-Israel at all, but you ARE stupid

Complete denial. And I mean complete denial. But then I didn't expect you to have a hotline into Hezbollah HQ (surprise!) I'm still waiting to hear your opinion on why the Hezbollah nutters kicked this off in the first place. Come on Tugger, you're rabidly anti-Israel, here's the questions for the third time. Let's hear your opinions.

So what on earth do the nutters firing rockets at Israeli civilians think they are achieving? Come on Tugger, you've lived there, why are these idiots bringing down the totally expected Israeli response on the long-suffering civilian population? You're rabidly anti-Israel, what does Hezbollah think it will get from killing Israeli civilians? The "defence" of Lebanon perhaps?

Oh and that minibus full of dead Lebanese was clearly DELIBERATELY targetted, so let's drop the charade that all civilian casualties at the hands of the IDF are accidental, eh...

Yep it was deliberately targeted - as a minibus full of armed Hezbollah. Had they known it was full of civvies they wouldn't have wasted either the munitions or the pr support that would be lost. It sounds heartless I know but that's war.

[simon]

Shakira Calls For End To Hostilities

[Chinahand]

Just above I was saying there was little evidence that Israel was recklessly attacking civilian targets.

 

Now I'm not so sure.

 

You'd think attacking an International Red Cross Ambulance would be about the limit. But what about attacking two of them ... Both with their blue flashing lights on and with spotlights shining on their red cross signs.

 

Check out BBC Video

 

Or Sydney Morning Hearald report

 

FFS even compared to the Yanks taking out a couple of British Warriors Armoured Vehicles this looks like ... how should I put it ... a lack of care in target selection, gross negligence, a basic dereliction of duty ... a war crime?

[Tugger]

I can't wait to hear the justification for this one...

[Gladys]

I've not read all the arguments on this thread, but watched the BBC news tonight. Just sheer horror on each side. Imagine having to plead to have your baby thrown back to you from a refugee rescue boat, or having to leave your children behind because your papers conform and theirs do not? Imagine watching your home being destroyed and your wife dying while you are trying to protect your grandchildren or watching your child suffer from burns so severe that the only outcome is death.

 

Forget about who is right, who is wrong historically or contemporily, just stop!

[localyokel]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about Israels right to defend itself. You do not do that by sending in F16's to bomb the cr*p out of residential areas full of children because someone has kidnapped one soldier and launched a few iffy home made rockets that could not hit a barn door at 20 paces after you retaliated.

 

I'm also sick any tired of seeing Bush defend Israel with that stupid half-smirk on his face. Its plainly clear that this is all about establishing a new world order in the Middle East, and oil, anyone who says' different is in denial.

 

Levelling cities is not proportional, bombing ambulances is not proportional. Its plain to see. It does not need to be debated.

[LoneWolf]

Forget about who is right, who is wrong historically or contemporily, just stop!

I think everyone could agree with that Gladys. Unfortunately, for Israel, just stopping would leave a massive terrorist infrastructure intact along their border.

I dont really think its an option for Israel to stop while that is the case.

[LoneWolf]

I'm sick and tired of hearing about Israels right to defend itself. You do not do that by sending in F16's to bomb the cr*p out of residential areas full of children because someone has kidnapped one soldier and launched a few iffy home made rockets that could not hit a barn door at 20 paces after you retaliated.

 

The defensive action launched by Israel has been entirely predictable in its scale and scope. You are absolutely wrong in thinking the rockets launched at Israel are iffy home made affairs. do some basic research.

 

I'm also sick any tired of seeing Bush defend Israel with that stupid half-smirk on his face. Its plainly clear that this is all about establishing a new world order in the Middle East, and oil, anyone who says' different is in denial.

 

I take it you have seen the effect on spot oil prices?

 

Levelling cities is not proportional, bombing ambulances is not proportional. Its plain to see. It does not need to be debated.

 

Yes it does. Furthermore we need to grasp an understanding of how Arab propoganda has taken such a hold in the Western world. IMHO Israel has acted in a measured and entirely predictable manner.

What did you expect them to do?