Israel

[Chinahand]

Four United Nations peacekeepers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.

..

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

 

A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm

 

... four options.

 

#1. A pilot “lost it” and went after every target of opportunity that he saw or thought to be a target of opportunity.

 

#2. Simple misidentification of a target. A pilot didn’t realise that he was about to hit a UN post.

 

#3. A miscalculation of system failure of a bomb.

 

#4 The deliberate involvement by hezb’allah either to cause the explosion and make it look as if it had been bombed OR that they used an “aliasing” device that redirected a ‘smart’ bomb away from its real target that had been identified by a laser designator and re-designated it against the UN post. These devises do exist.

 

What is for certain is that for people to simply accuse Israel as a state to deliberately attack a UN installation is beyond stupid.

 

Rog, I think 3 and 4 can clearly be removed, the period of time the post was under artillary fire prior to its final bombing makes them unrealistic.

 

I think its a clear combination of 1 and 2. However I don't think its a matter of a pilot "loosing it". Check out Asia Media Report quoting Israeli Army Radio:

 

Israeli Army Radio, quoting a top official, said the country would enforce a one-km 'free-fire' zone to bar Hezbollah from the border, without keeping troops on the ground

 

I'm certain the pilot was given the coordinates and took it out. Israel is being deliberately robust and has the attitude if there is any doubt, take it out. I imagine the order to take out the post was taken at a relatively low level as a tactical descision. I'm sure it was a deliberate descision. Do you really doubt it?

 

I doubt if they knew the post was occupied and simply wanted to destroy a building which could be of use to the enemy.

 

Israel has a long record of ignoring UN posts and taking the decision to continue a military strike even if it involves a UN area. The watch post was a militarily useful feature, whether it was being used by Hezbollah at that time or not. Hence it was destroyed ... exactly like the bridges, roads, power stations etc etc.

 

This deliberate destruction of non combatant (but dual use) infrastructure is entirely a part of the IDF mission and they have made it quite clear they will continue pretty much no matter who criticizes them, or the international consequenses. Given the fact they are going to be condemned no matter what I suppose for them it makes perfect sense.

[lectro]

Four United Nations peacekeepers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in southern Lebanon, the UN has said.

..

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

 

A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm

 

So a UN post was hit and (sadly) 4 UN observers were killed, and it IS sad.

 

What is also sad is the responses by that useless article Kofi Annan.

 

First off he accuses Israel of deliberately targeting the UN post and THEN calls for an enquiry to find out what happened.

 

The man is a fool.

 

Let’s just suppose that it WAS an Israeli bomb that hit the UN post, and it probably was and let’s put aside just why the UN observers were still there in the first place.

 

Why would the Israeli commander in the field give an order to take out a UN post?

 

The ONLY reason would be if the UN staff were acting as fire directors for hezb’allah. VERRRY unlikely that they would have been. Not inconceivable, just very unlikely.

 

So that leaves four options.

 

#1. A pilot “lost it” and went after every target of opportunity that he saw or thought to be a target of opportunity.

 

#2. Simple misidentification of a target. A pilot didn’t realise that he was about to hit a UN post.

 

#3. A miscalculation of system failure of a bomb.

 

#4 The deliberate involvement by hezb’allah either to cause the explosion and make it look as if it had been bombed OR that they used an “aliasing” device that redirected a ‘smart’ bomb away from its real target that had been identified by a laser designator and re-designated it against the UN post. These devises do exist.

 

What is for certain is that for people to simply accuse Israel as a state to deliberately attack a UN installation is beyond stupid.

You're definitely a troll... funniest thing I've read in ages. You must be related to the Iraqi Information Minister ...

[Rog]

You're definitely a troll... funniest thing I've read in ages. You must be related to the Iraqi Information Minister ...

 

No, lectro, I'm just an elderly Jewish guy with a whole lot of knowledge about the region, the politics, and the way that the people in the region think, and what it's like to be engaged in war especially as it's being fought right now.

 

This one isn't all that different from others in the past. We get attacked, we strike back, we get slated for doing so. Bad things happen and in this case I do believe it was mishap as there is no supporting evidence that the post had been under deliberate attack by artillery, and of course it's those “eeevil Jews” again.

 

I'm also a person with friends and family who have been in harms way in the past and who are at present, and whose country is at risk and being libeled left right and centre.

[Tugger]

Sorry Rog, it's not libel when it's the truth

[lectro]

 

 

You're definitely a troll... funniest thing I've read in ages. You must be related to the Iraqi Information Minister ...

 

No, lectro, I'm just an elderly Jewish guy with a whole lot of knowledge about the region, the politics, and the way that the people in the region think, and what it's like to be engaged in war especially as it's being fought right now.

 

This one isn't all that different from others in the past. We get attacked, we strike back, we get slated for doing so. Bad things happen and in this case I do believe it was mishap as there is no supporting evidence that the post had been under deliberate attack by artillery, and of course it's those “eeevil Jews” again.

 

I'm also a person with friends and family who have been in harms way in the past and who are at present, and whose country is at risk and being libeled left right and centre.

 

All I can say is you have not done yourself or Israel's "cause" any good by your recent postings here. You have come across as a bigoted, racist, offensive, righteous know-it-all. You haven't displayed an ounce of humanity, compassion or empathy. Your blood lust and unrestrained joy in the death, maiming and destruction of fellow human beings is breath taking in it's ugliness. As an elderly gentleman you have gained much knowledge but obviously not learnt much in your years. The saddest thing is that you are probably passing this bile on to your children and grandchildren. You are no better or worse than those you despise so much. And so it will continue...

[Chinahand]

I've been browsing the web site of Jane's Defence Weekly and thought some of the information was worth passing on.

 

CLICKY 1

 

The IDF has acknowledged that the number of Hizbullah casualties is low, estimated at no more than several dozen out of more than 300 Lebanese citizens killed during the fighting.

 

Alon Ben-David, correspondent for Jane’s Defence Weekly, says that intensive Israeli air raids have done limited damage to Hizbullah’s defensive fortifications despite IDF special forces launching small incursions into Lebanese territory.

 

“The Israeli Forces have discovered that Hizbullah has established a Vietcong-style network of tunnels and trenches close to the Israeli border, providing shelter for its operatives and their weapons,” said Ben-David

 

A senior defence source told Jane’s Defence Weekly “We should consider that what we are facing in Lebanon is not a militia but rather a special forces brigade of the Iranian Army,” adding “They are extremely well trained and equipped and charged with high motivation to continue fighting.”

 

CLICKY 2

 

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has this week accused both Tehran and Damascus of providing support for the Lebanese militant movement.

 

This analysis is shared by many Israeli intelligence and security sources. There is a conviction that behind Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) leader Khaled Meshal, based in Damascus, and Hizbullah's Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, now believed to be in hiding in an underground shelter in southern Lebanon, is hardline Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Tehran.

 

The Israeli position is that Nasrallah, Hizbullah's secretary general, had assumed that Israel's response to the attack would be relatively moderate and similar to those that followed previous provocative incidents since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000. There is evidence that soon after the abduction of the two Israel Defense Force soldiers from Israeli territory, Hizbullah officials in contact with the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) had suggested the possibility of a ceasefire as early as that evening. Israel's prolonged military response appears to have come as a genuine surprise to the Hizbullah leadership.

 

CLICKY 3

 

Israeli assessments on the damage inflicted to Hizbullah infrastructure vary between 30 to 40 per cent, mostly to their alignment of artillery rockets.

 

Although a considerable amount of suspected rocket storage sites were was hit by the Israel Air Force, Israel believes that Hizbullah still maintains long-strike capabilities, which will be introduced at a later stage. On an audio tape released on 14 July, Hizbullah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah pledged to demonstrate a strike "beyond Haifa and beyond beyond Haifa".

 

This is a very high stakes Game Israel has chosen to play ... they could have replied in the business as usual fashion Hizbollah were expecting ... but now its all up in the air and who knows how things will end up.

[Lonan3]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5217176.stm

 

UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

 

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop

[Rog]

Bigoted, At what point does a deep committed and dedicated standpoint based on certainty become bigotry? Maybe when another person doesn’t have the knowledge to form such a viewpoint.

 

Racist, If it is to be a racist to reject the ludicrously obvious fact that not all human races are equal or if it is racist to reject the concept that all societies are equally good and wholesome then yes. I most certainly am racist.

 

 

Offensive, I’ve never tried to be other than straightforward. If it offends then so what. I don’t do gratuitous nice.

 

 

Righteous And with very good cause in the matter of the justification for the cleansing of a pollution from the other side of our Northern border. We have every justification to feel righteous because we are in the right and a recent pole shows that over 85% of the Israeli citizens agree with the action being taken.

 

 

Know-it-all? No. Not know it all but know a VERY great deal about the region and the parties involved.

 

So lecto, if you thought to insult me you have failed in that I am not insulted.

 

The only point that I contest is the assertion that I am a know it all. What is beyond doubt is that I know a damm site more about the matter than you.

 

You haven't displayed an ounce of humanity.

 

Not for foul creatures such as the terrorist scum of hez-b’allah or hammas I haven’t and what’s more won’t.

 

(nor) compassion or empathy.

 

Compassion? For the genuinely innocent, certainly, and also for the poor sods who have been systematically lied to and brainwashed by their lying scum leaders such as arafat and the foul cult in which they are ensnared.

 

Empathy? Not one single bit of empathgy do I feel for those who are trying to destroy my friends, my relations, and my nation. Not one iota. None.

 

Your blood lust and unrestrained joy in the death and the maiming and destruction of fellow human beings is breath taking in it's ugliness.

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of war. It seems that it's your first visit.

 

Yes, a blood lust that finally we are kicking ass and I am delight to read of terrorists and their supporters being killed, maimed, whatever. I really am. My ONLY disquiet is that our forces may stop too soon.

 

But you want to see ugliness? I can tell you where to see ugliness. Look at what these scum have done to us IN SPITE of our trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement again and again and again in the past.

 

Believe me, I’ve seen ugliness. It’s face is well known to me.

 

What I see today is the cleansing of a pig sty. It’s just a shame that there’s other than pigs being killed but you can’t make an omelets without breaking eggs.

[casio]

As a creature we are terribly naïve, we fight over borders that are purely mans invention, murder each other in the name of religious beliefs again which are mans invention, wasting life after life on doctrines spelt out in books written by man, assuming we don’t destroy ourselves perhaps Harry Potter will be a messiah in 2000yrs. We seem to be addicted to self-destruct, Global warming, Nuclear war, religious fundamentalism, who are we trying to kid with our petty squabbles, should an asteroid of sufficient size head our way, then it won’t matter if you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Hare Krishna, we will simply be another speck in the cosmos that has blown away.

Religion in all its forms only serves to assist the rulers in imposing their doctrines on the weak minded, with promises of an afterlife or vestal virgins or other such fanciful dreams, we are a carbon based organic matter or in other words, food for the worms. Israel won’t win, Hezbollah won’t win, Osama Bin Laden won’t win, even George W will lose, because time and the universe is greater than all of them and will exist long after this infected planet ceases to be.

[Jacqueline]

What I see today is the cleansing of a pig sty

 

Goodness me. You're beginning to sound like Hitler.

[Albert Tatlock]

No, lectro, I'm just an elderly Jewish guy...

Blimey...I didn't know the pensioners were so militant down at the Nell Gwynne Tea Rooms.

[Tugger]

I think that saying that races are not equal (i.e. that one race is better than another) is pretty much the definition of racism.

 

The omelet and breaking eggs quote was how Stalin justified his actions (Stalin being the planet's no.1 mass murderer of all time).

 

The other buffoons backing the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians and UN observers couldn't look more ridiculous if they tried. I can't remember which clown in particular it was that still professed to believe what Dubya and Blair told us about Saddam's WMDs, but their stupidity was breathtaking

[Chinahand]

It beginning to look like the situation is escalating dangerously. Check out this report from the Age:

ATTEMPTS to broker a Lebanon peace deal at a Rome summit are destined to fail, Iran says.

 

It has also predicted a backlash across the Muslim world unless Israel's military forces are immediately reined in.

 

Senior Iranian officials said the exclusion from the summit of Iran, Syria and their Lebanese ally, Hezbollah, meant that no lasting settlement was possible.

 

Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said: "They should have invited all the countries of the region, including Syria and Iran, if they want peace. How can you tackle these important issues without having representatives of all countries in the region?"

 

Fears that the conflict could spread across the region have intensified. Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, a normally placid US ally, warned that "if the option of peace fails as a result of Israeli arrogance, then the only option remaining will be war, and God alone knows what the region would witness in a conflict that would spare no one".

 

Iran claims that no amount of Western effort can bring a breakthrough while major parties are shut out of the negotiating room. An Iranian official, speaking by telephone from Tehran, said: "Iran and Syria should be involved, not because they are sponsors of Hezbollah but because they are regional powers. If Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are involved, then Iran and Syria should be as well if they are looking to be successful."

 

Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad took a tougher line, criticising the Security Council for inaction.

 

"Upon hearing the slightest criticism against the Zionist regime, they issue dozens of resolutions. But now, 13 days after that regime's massive attack against Lebanon, using most fatal weapons, they even refrain from asking for a truce," he said.

 

The conflict was in danger of spreading through the Middle East "like a hurricane", he said.

 

The Speaker of the Lebanese Parliament and a conduit to Hezbollah, Nabih Berri, said a plan for a security force "cannot be implemented in Lebanon without creating internal strife and this is very dangerous".

I think Hizbollah wasn't expecting Israel to react the way it did, but I also think the world powers weren't expecting to have to use leverage over Syria and Iran to stop a full scale war breaking out in the Middle East. Unfortunately its in the interests of these two little rouge states to use every terrorist and militant they've got to win concessions from the west. I said it earlier, they've been learning from North Korea, and now I'm even more certain this is going to be a very high stakes game of brinkmanship with Syria and especially Iran using Hizbollah and Israel in its games with the US over nuclear weapons etc.

 

Israel choose to escallate the proxi war its been waging with Iran et al via Hizbollah ... I'm not sure it is in its powers to reign the violence back in ... its going to be an interesting few weeks ... everyone assumes Iran and Syria will try to re-supply Hizbollah ... when they get caught doing it they'll be hell to pay.

 

What worries me are the reports I've posted above from Jane's Defence Weekly ... one of the most reputable defence sources ... which show Hizbollah hasn't lost nearly as much capability as Israel would like.

 

For all the over reaction of Israel's lashing out, it hasn't achieved the strategic goals they were hoping for ... but now they can't pull back ... boy could it get nasty.

[P.K.]

This is a very high stakes Game Israel has chosen to play ... they could have replied in the business as usual fashion Hizbollah were expecting ... but now its all up in the air and who knows how things will end up.

Agreed. Even though Hezbollah (and their Syrian and Iranian masters) were not expecting such a broad response their defences by now would appear to be more than difficult. The IDF will use it's superior firepower to reduce IDF casualties. If the enemy is so well dug in superior firepower will not help you. Then you will only get them out with men on the ground. Which is why the IDF are not finding it as easy as they thought it would be. I still think this is the broader aim:

Because the Lebanese state is so weak and their army mostly Hezbollah supporters, if they can't be stopped from within then it looks like a UN action to police the south of the country.

 

So I guess from an Isreali standpoint the more they bomb the infrastructure the more pressure goes on Hezbollah supporters and the more pressure is applied on the UN to do something. Looks like a win/win from here.

I guess they will stop when they have weakened Hezbollah enough that the UN or Nato can commit peacekeepers.

[jacko]

 

 

You're definitely a troll... funniest thing I've read in ages. You must be related to the Iraqi Information Minister ...

 

No, lectro, I'm just an elderly Jewish guy with a whole lot of knowledge about the region, the politics, and the way that the people in the region think, and what it's like to be engaged in war especially as it's being fought right now.

 

This one isn't all that different from others in the past. We get attacked, we strike back, we get slated for doing so. Bad things happen and in this case I do believe it was mishap as there is no supporting evidence that the post had been under deliberate attack by artillery, and of course it's those “eeevil Jews” again.

 

I'm also a person with friends and family who have been in harms way in the past and who are at present, and whose country is at risk and being libeled left right and centre.

 

People are being blown to pieces and you`re squeeling like a pig because you think you`re being libeled?

Do all Jews feel this way about the situation?I really hope not.Salavating and jerking off over people being killed makes you no different to the Nazis.Remember them Rog?