Israel

[Rog]

The ITV news feature last night suggested that the latest opinion polls in Lebanon show 87% support for Hezbollah, with a large percentage of the Christian population showing support. It seems the innocent civilians are starting to get a little p***ed off with Israel's bombardment by the sounds of it, which is probably what Hezbollah would wish for unfortunately.

 

 

If they want to support a terrorist organisation then to paraphrase the original "Burn baby, burn",-----

 

"Burn Beirut, burn".

 

.

[Jacqueline]

It does amuse me the way Rog goads the supporters of that proscribed terrorist organization called Hezbollah. It's like winding up a little clockwork doll.

 

PK,

 

I would suggest that there are few, if any, on here who support Hezbollah. I think the reason Rog is getting such a hard (and well deserved in my opinion) time on here is due to his absolute disregard for human life. If there is any 'goading' going on it is not directed toward Hezbollah supporters but toward ordinary people who are sickened by the bloodshed and Rog's proclamations of his delight. If you find that amusing then I pity you. I really do.

 

You may be fully hardened to the horrors of war but please try and accept that there are people here who are struggling to come to terms with it and who find the whole thing quite distressing enough without being 'wound up like clockwork dolls'.

[Albert Tatlock]

 

It does amuse me the way Rog goads the supporters of that proscribed terrorist organization called Hezbollah. It's like winding up a little clockwork doll.

 

PK,

 

I would suggest that there are few, if any, on here who support Hezbollah. I think the reason Rog is getting such a hard (and well deserved in my opinion) time on here is due to his absolute disregard for human life. If there is any 'goading' going on it is not directed toward Hezbollah supporters but toward ordinary people who are sickened by the bloodshed and Rog's proclamations of his delight. If you find that amusing then I pity you. I really do.

 

You may be fully hardened to the horrors of war but please try and accept that there are people here who are struggling to come to terms with it and who find the whole thing quite distressing enough without being 'wound up like clockwork dolls'.

Agree with that. We need solutions, not people glorifying and justifying a return to failed policies. Remember what happended the last time France an the US were in Lebanon.

[joeyconcrete]

What do people think about the Iran and Syria situation, in terms of becoming involved or attacked next? Radio 4 had a few bods on this morning who suggested that this may well be the case. Is the decision on the Iranian nuclear situation due soon?

[Rog]

 

It does amuse me the way Rog goads the supporters of that proscribed terrorist organization called Hezbollah. It's like winding up a little clockwork doll.

 

PK,

 

I would suggest that there are few, if any, on here who support Hezbollah. I think the reason Rog is getting such a hard (and well deserved in my opinion) time on here is due to his absolute disregard for human life. If there is any 'goading' going on it is not directed toward Hezbollah supporters but toward ordinary people who are sickened by the bloodshed and Rog's proclamations of his delight. If you find that amusing then I pity you. I really do.

 

You may be fully hardened to the horrors of war but please try and accept that there are people here who are struggling to come to terms with it and who find the whole thing quite distressing enough without being 'wound up like clockwork dolls'.

Agree with that. We need solutions, not people glorifying and justifying a return to failed policies. Remember what happended the last time France an the US were in Lebanon.

 

There is no solution that doesn’t include (preferably) the utter destruction of hez-b’allah and all its members, or at the very least the decimation of the movement and its resources to a level that they are no longer an issue..

 

There then needs to be an acceptance by the UN that Israel must be protected from attack (some hope from the useless UN).

 

There must then be an election held by the palests that kicks hammas into touch, it needs to be a genuine election, not one engineered to achieve this, and a government must be returned that will underwrite the next item.

 

There then needs to be an EXPLICIT acceptances of the legitimacy of Israel by the arabs and especially by the palests including the right of Israel to exist.

 

The Security Fence must be completed and Israel must declare its borders and NOT try to use the Security Fence as being the de facto borders.

 

Certain settlements must be removed, certain settlements must be retained but retained within the stated borders of Israel.

 

Jerusalem is not on the table. It is our capital city. It is non negotiable.

 

The so called right to return must be limited to a right for the PA to accept returnees into palest lands only.;

 

Those are the minimum requirements for a settlement. They ain’t gonna happen so in the meantime Israel must just keep on keepin’ on and eliminating as many of those who attack as can be reached.

[Albert Tatlock]

There is no solution that doesn’t include (preferably) the utter destruction of hez-b’allah and all its members, or at the very least the decimation of the movement and its resources to a level that they are no longer an issue..

But you are using a hammer to try and kill viruses. Every time you kill or injure one they react by multiplying.

There then needs to be an acceptance by the UN that Israel must be protected from attack (some hope from the useless UN).

Israel and the US should respect the UN's authority by obeying and not vetoing its resolutions. How can you expect others to trust the UN and the UN to help sort this out if you choose to hear only what you want to hear and obey only the resolutions that you want to obey?

There must then be an election held by the palests that kicks hammas into touch, it needs to be a genuine election, not one engineered to achieve this, and a government must be returned that will underwrite the next item.

This is linked to my first point - you are helping to create and build an electorate who see the only way forward as voting for hez-b’allah. They see the UN as just as useless - again because the US and Israel have no respect for it and have effectively extracted it's teeth.

There then needs to be an EXPLICIT acceptances of the legitimacy of Israel by the arabs and especially by the palests including the right of Israel to exist.

This can only be achieved through negotiation, a significant financial development package, and agreement on borders and access to certain towns/cities. This acceptance is for the UN to enforce, and if organisations/countries go against this then the UN will have a remit to act. e.g. a substantial government financial package to develop the whole region would encourage Lebanon and others to discourage/report/outlaw groups or behaviour (with the backing of a far more affluant society).

The Security Fence must be completed and Israel must declare its borders and NOT try to use the Security Fence as being the de facto borders.

Agree, but only as a temporary measure, and completed under the full authority of the UN whose decisions would be binding.

Certain settlements must be removed, certain settlements must be retained but retained within the stated borders of Israel.

Agree, but would add once again - under the auspices of the UN.

Jerusalem is not on the table. It is our capital city. It is non negotiable.

Jerusalem should come on to the table. A corridor (similar to access to Berlin during the cold war) could be created and controlled by the UN. This would allow the Israelis and outsiders to begin to mix, with everyone using the corridor searched and monitored as they drove through it. i.e. Coaches could be escorted to certain sites to ensure everyone that arrived then left).

The so called right to return must be limited to a right for the PA to accept returnees into palest lands only.;

 

Those are the minimum requirements for a settlement. They ain’t gonna happen so in the meantime Israel must just keep on keepin’ on and eliminating as many of those who attack as can be reached.

The cycle of violence has to be broken somehow. IMHO, it is only by building on respect for the UN that these things can only even begin to happen. The current situation is taking us back to the 70s and 80s.

 

IMHO.

 

 

edited to add: this is only the stuff of phase 1 - as we are talking about a twenty to fifty year solution really.

[Rog]

There then needs to be an EXPLICIT acceptances of the legitimacy of Israel by the arabs and especially by the palests including the right of Israel to exist.

 

This can only be achieved through negotiation, a significant financial development package, and agreement on borders and access to certain towns/cities. This acceptance is for the UN to enforce, and if organisations/countries go against this then the UN will have a remit to act. e.g. a substantial government financial package to develop the whole region would encourage Lebanon and others to discourage/report/outlaw groups or behaviour (with the backing of a far more affluant society).

 

And there’s the big problem. The palests and other assorted arabs, as long as they’re predominantly islamic, can NEVER accept the right of Israel to exist.

 

The land is an islamic waaf. The principle is that in islam once a land is captured it becomes ‘dar ul Islam’. As such it is the property of Allah (don’t ask) and so it is his for all time and if ‘stolen’ by dar ul harb (that’s any nation that’s not mohammedan) it is then the HOLY duty to regain it.

 

For that reason the arabs can NEVER accept Israel. There is no solution other than to build a damm big fence and keep ‘em out, or to dismantle the state of Israel.

 

If the latter course of action were to be adopted then there would be a 20,700 sq Km area of Middle East real estate that would be mostly trinitite and certainly would not be safe to even walk over or even near to for a considerable period of time.

 

The land of the nation or nations that forced the dismantling of Israel would have very similar if not identical characteristics as well.

[lectro]

Those are the minimum requirements for a settlement. They ain’t gonna happen so in the meantime Israel must just keep on keepin’ on and eliminating as many of those who attack as can be reached.

 

You really think you can win this? Even if you wipe out Hamas (and most of Palestine judging by the way you are going), build 300ft high walls around Israel, and conscript everyone into the army you will all still live in fear (not you personally of course cos you're all cosy in the UK) for many many decades to come. You are surrounded by countries and people that understandably hate you and there will always be a suicide bomber ready to maim your lot because you did the same and worse to his lot. What a future Israel has. Fighting to live in insular fear. There will be no winners here.

 

It seems to me that if Israel were out of the equation then the 99% of the instability in the region would disappear overnight. I'd suggest you move lock stock and barrel to Alaska but you'd probably just put the local Inuits into refugee camps, invade Canada and build settlements, while training the IDF to identify Greenpeace ships and polar bears as potential terrorist havens along the lines of UN buildings and Red Cross ambulances.... but I know nothing and Rog is right about everything so I'll expect to be suitably chastised.

[Chinahand]

You really think you can win this? Even if you wipe out Hamas (and most of Palestine judging by the way you are going), build 300ft high walls around Israel, and conscript everyone into the army you will all still live in fear (not you personally of course cos you're all cosy in the UK) for many many decades to come. You are surrounded by countries and people that understandably hate you and there will always be a suicide bomber ready to maim your lot because you did the same and worse to his lot. What a future Israel has. Fighting to live in insular fear. There will be no winners here.

 

It seems to me that if Israel were out of the equation then the 99% of the instability in the region would disappear overnight. I'd suggest you move lock stock and barrel to Alaska but you'd probably just put the local Inuits into refugee camps, invade Canada and build settlements, while training the IDF to identify Greenpeace ships and polar bears as potential terrorist havens along the lines of UN buildings and Red Cross ambulances.... but I know nothing and Rog is right about everything so I'll expect to be suitably chastised.

 

And now we have Lectro playing the tosser and the troll. What an informative and realistic debate we are all having.

 

Israel used to live with the very real risk of annahilation from the massed armies of the countries surrounding it. Due to a political process that risk has been massively reduced and Israel now has extensive security cooperation from Eygpt and Jordan, countries which only 30 years ago were dedicated to Israel's destruction.

 

The risk of annalhilation still exists, from the likes of Ahmadinejad armed with the bomb, or from nutters similarly armed. But the fact that a political process has worked in the past shows to me it can work in the future. Israel will have to be ever vigilent, but so does the US and the UK.

 

If the PLA was able to sort itself out and understand it would gain an awful lot more from governing a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza than fighting for a greater Palestine then there would be hope. The same applies to Israel and its dreams of a Greater Israel, but Sharon and Olmert seem to have grasped that nettle and their people support them in doing it.

 

The stupid thing is that something like three quarters of the palestinians also support a 2 state solution and have told surveyers they hope Hamas will follow this path forward ... so why did they vote for a party which at the time explicitly rejected this approach!

 

The most hopeful thing is that Hamas has now made a commitment to initially govern the palestinian part of a two state solution.

 

Get them to stick to that, get a political process that creates a Palestinian state ... and Israel is left fighting nutters and the world will agree they are nutters.

 

Unfortunately at the moment the nutters are mixed in with those who genuinely call for self determination and freedom from oppression.

 

And many, many people are sympathetic to those calls ... and see the futility of trying to start a political process off via a 1000 lb bomb.

 

Rog's list isn't nearly as blinkered as his rants and blood lust. Alot of it is possible and if the possible occurs it will make the currently impossible more likely to be solveable in the future.

[lectro]

And now we have Lectro playing the tosser and the troll. What an informative and realistic debate we are all having.

 

Hey if Rog is doing it why can't we all have a go at it?

[Rog]

And now we have Lectro playing the tosser and the troll. What an informative and realistic debate we are all having.

 

Hey if Rog is doing it why can't we all have a go at it?

 

 

Did it ever occour to you that what I write is what I genuinely believe?

 

Because believe me, it is.

 

I have very good and personal reasons to feel as I do about this subject, as do a great many other Jewish peope.

 

To us thie IS payback time and it feels GOOD.

[Chinahand]

And there’s the big problem. The palests and other assorted arabs, as long as they’re predominantly islamic, can NEVER accept the right of Israel to exist.

 

The land is an islamic waaf. The principle is that in islam once a land is captured it becomes ‘dar ul Islam’. As such it is the property of Allah (don’t ask) and so it is his for all time and if ‘stolen’ by dar ul harb (that’s any nation that’s not mohammedan) it is then the HOLY duty to regain it.

 

For that reason the arabs can NEVER accept Israel. There is no solution other than to build a damm big fence and keep ‘em out, or to dismantle the state of Israel.

 

As ever I'm going to niggle on about your description of ALL Muslim's as people who fundamentally want to enforce all the stipulations of the Koran etc immediately NOW.

 

I just don't know what to make of it ... and my reply is woolly and is definitely down to a C of E upbringing, but anyway. I've met and I can imagine many Muslims saying they aspire to a world where everyone VOLUNTARILY embraces their religion (I definitely know many Christians who think like this!)

 

I can also imagine a moderate Muslim saying they aspire to a world where Israel returns to be 'dar ul Islam' via conversion and a peaceful process. These muslims renounce the idea that this must be done by force and war.

 

The meaning of the word Jihad is contested and moderate Muslims see it as a personal struggle to live a just life as accepted by their god.

 

Does this require cutting people's heads off, suicide bombing and demanding the destruction of the state of Israel ... no it does not.

 

You say it is impossible for Islam to accept any part of the non muslim world ... I simply find that too exagerated.

 

Bin Laden is not representative of Muslim belief, there are moderate muslims who can twist their world view and their beliefs in such a way that war is not the only course of action and compromise is possible.

 

Turkey is a secular Islamic country ... and an ally of Israel ... something Rog would describe as totally impossible for a Muslim to accept ... but millions of Muslims do accept it.

 

All your nevers and bold font can't hide the fact that moderation does exist, and must be encouraged. And maybe if you stopped you nevers and bold font and glee with 1000 lb bombs more moderation would be possible on both sides.

[Rog]

Interesting reading --- and from a disinterested source..

 

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

 

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

 

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

 

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

 

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

 

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

 

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

 

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.

 

Full article - (Ottawa Citizen Newspaper) http://tinyurl.com/fxaee

[Albert Tatlock]

Interesting reading --- and from a disinterested source..

 

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a "shield" to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

 

Those words, written in an e-mail dated just nine days ago, offer a possible explanation as to why the post -- which according to UN officials was clearly marked and known to Israeli forces -- was hit by Israel on Tuesday night, said retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie yesterday.

 

The strike hit the UN observation post in the southern Lebanese village of El Khiam, killing Canadian Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener and three others serving as unarmed UN military observers in the area.

Just last week, Maj. Hess-von Kruedener wrote an e-mail about his experiences after nine months in the area, words Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said are an obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics.

 

"What I can tell you is this," he wrote in an e-mail to CTV dated July 18. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both (Israeli) artillery and aerial bombing.

 

"The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters (sic) of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters (sic) from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but rather due to tactical necessity."

 

Those words, particularly the last sentence, are not-so-veiled language indicating Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

 

"What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.

 

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.

 

Full article - (Ottawa Citizen Newspaper) http://tinyurl.com/fxaee

If this is your attempt to justify a war crime you can stick it! Despite the UN making 10 telephone calls to the IDF, despite the UN broadcasting in clear language, despite there being no surrounding vegetation around a clearly marked "UN" post hundreds of meters away from any other buildings (with "UN" painted in 6 foot high letters) - the UN observers were still targeted by the IDF and there is no justification for this. It is still a war crime.

 

If you apply your brain, how would you be describing the death of Israeli UN observers should they have been in Africa and were targeted by one of the opposing forces in a war there in a similar UN post? You are deluding yourself.

[LoneWolf]

Just back from a flying visit to even sunnier climes and was more than a

little surprised to find this thread is still so active as it had already

degenerated into a slanging match when I left.

Im not sure what to make of Rog's posts and Albert seems to be on a mission

to debunk anything and everything Rog might say.

Setting that aside it seems to me there is a pressing need to provide assistance to

those Lebanese people displaced from their homes by the consequences of Hezbollah activities.

This is clearly something the international community might usefully address as urgent.

[for political as well as humanitarian reasons]

In particular there needs to be a mechanism to prevent aid from falling into the hands of Hezbollah

and worsening the situation.

Here is an update from The US Government which, in my opinion, falls some way short of meeting the requirements. US Aid