Israel

[simon]

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers ( The Times Online )

 

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

 

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

 

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

 

Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.

 

“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”

 

Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.

 

“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”

 

Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.

 

Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”

[Albert Tatlock]

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers ( The Times Online )

 

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

 

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

 

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

 

Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.

 

“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”

 

Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.

 

“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”

 

Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.

 

Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.”

Oh well, if you can't beat democracy then why not usurp it! Though I think for a start they need to recall their IOM ambassador (Rog) for retraining.

 

IMHO, for most people in the west this has gone way past who or what you believe in anymore. Both sides are wrong and the vast majority of posts on this thread have been about finding solutions and breaking the cycle of violence - not finding excuses and blagging the support to fuel it.

 

IMHO, this can only be achieved by giving back the UN its authority, recognising its authority and giving it back its teeth to sort this out once and for all through (military and financial means and through negotiation). Unfortunately that UN vote has already been 'fixed' and perhaps these 5000 people might best spend their time first trying to unfix that - otherwise things will never move forward.

 

It'll be poisoned umbrellas in Strand Street next!

[Jacqueline]

To us thie IS payback time and it feels GOOD.

 

 

And how's it feeling this morning Rog? Still good? Still happy with the way things are going?

 

Albert's right - this has taken things back 20/30 years. It's an old, well worn adage - but an eye for a eye does indeed leave the whole world blind. :/

 

And PK,

 

I would prefer to discuss this in an open forum rather than by PM.

 

Thanks.

[Rog]

 

 

To us thie IS payback time and it feels GOOD.

 

 

And how's it feeling this morning Rog? Still good? Still happy with the way things are going?

 

 

 

Yes. VERY good.

 

This evil thing that hez-b'allah kicked off has boomeranged right back into their lap.

 

That they have operated from amongst their own families shows just what filth they are.

 

And yes, if the families are equally indoctrinated with so much hate then although I do regret that innocent kids have been so corrupted and / or are treated as having such little value as the hez-b'allah filth seem to do, then every dead member os such a corrupted family killed is one less for an Israeli person to kill or be killed by in the future.

 

That's how it works in such a war.

 

Yes, it's going VERY well.

[Chinahand]

Are you seriously telling me that following this path will lead to a more stable middle east than before Bush and Blair took action in the region over the past few years, and in this case have been so slow in seeking a ceasefire? Do you really think this is making Britain more secure, rather than a target for even more terrorist attacks?

Not only am I not telling you any such thing but there is nothing in anything I have posted which would lead a reasonable person to imagine I have suggested any such thing. What on earth are you ranting about?

 

Lonewolf, I think it is pretty obvious that Albert was asking a rhetorical question ... I don't think his post was a rant and I feel it was raising reasonable issues about the fact that a UN brokered settlement is going to be required to end this. Even if its enforced by US diplomatic muscle and French and Turkish paras or whatever force may eventually go in.

 

Your reply to Albert confuses me ... do you think the current action will lead to a more stable middle east and secure UK? If so I presume you support it, if not you'd be against it.

 

I would be interested in trying to understand how people who are defending Israel's actions think this is going to end. Rog goes on and on about killing every last member of Hezbollah, ignoring the fact that there are probably many thousands more people now willing to join them than there were before all this began. You and PK say Israel is being proportionate and limited in its response, and are defending its right to defend itself.

 

I totally agree Israel has a right to defend itself, but I have great difficulty seeing how this is achieving it. Seizing territory and killing active fighters has very little effect on an enemy fighting an asymetric war, both are of little value to Hizbollah.

 

You expressed suprise this topic was still going strong ... I'm not surprsed at all. The issues it is raising will probably have a major influence on world peace for the next generation or so.

 

My impression from talking and listening to people is that most feel what is gong on is counter productive and will aid and not hinder the extremists. Most people want a peace process and saw that occuring, slowly, oh so slowly, in Lebanon. That all now seems to be wrecked.

 

Iran and Syria suddenly have international leverage as they can rein in Hizbollah, or not, depending on the concessions they can demand out of the US. Maybe a solution will emerge, but I can't see it at the moment. With your strong defence of Israel can you see it any more clearly?

[Jacqueline]

Rog goes on and on about killing every last member of Hezbollah, ignoring the fact that there are probably many thousands more people now willing to join them than there were before all this began.

 

I agree entirely. Hezbollah are fighting a strategic war. One the other side have never been very good at; preferring the guns-blazing-kill-everything-in-its-tracks-very-quickly tactic. Already they are running out of men and the Hezbollah haven't even come out of their (many) caves yet. There's a long way to go and it's not looking pretty.

[Rog]

You guys really don’t get it.

 

The moslem world do NOT want ANY peace process that leaves Israel intact.

 

It REALLY is that way.

 

Just read the hammas charter. They believe every bloody word that is written in there.

 

The very first requirement for any peace is a partner who WANTS to establish a peaceful relationship with you. Today Israel doesn’t have such a partner.

 

Unless and until that changes then forget it. The best that Israel can do is to continue to keep their enemies either too subdued and frightened to do anything and too absolutely certain of massive retaliation if they do.

[Fleur]

 

 

To us thie IS payback time and it feels GOOD.

 

 

And how's it feeling this morning Rog? Still good? Still happy with the way things are going?

 

 

 

Yes. VERY good.

 

This evil thing that hez-b'allah kicked off has boomeranged right back into their lap.

 

That they have operated from amongst their own families shows just what filth they are.

 

And yes, if the families are equally indoctrinated with so much hate then although I do regret that innocent kids have been so corrupted and / or are treated as having such little value as the hez-b'allah filth seem to do, then every dead member os such a corrupted family killed is one less for an Israeli person to kill or be killed by in the future.

 

That's how it works in such a war.

 

Yes, it's going VERY well.

 

 

You need help!

[Jacqueline]

Yes, it's going VERY well.

 

Delighted you're so happy dear boy. I have this image of you coordinating the war effort from your little shed at the bottom of your garden in Norwich, taking a break only once in a while to run round the garden whooping for joy at the thought of more blood-loss.

 

You see Rog, the reason I can't stomach your views is that you seem to have a view of this as a child might. That if 'you' are strong enough and powerful enough to get rid of the bad men then everything will be OK. A blinkered view that does not look at the bigger picture and see the inevitable.

 

So go on then.. please.. tell me in very simple terms and without propagandist links.. how you see this coming to an end. I would really like to know. Persuade me that war war is better than jaw jaw. Please.

[Chinahand]

You guys really don’t get it.

 

The moslem world do NOT want ANY peace process that leaves Israel intact.

 

It REALLY is that way.

 

Just read the hammas charter. They believe every bloody word that is written in there.

 

The very first requirement for any peace is a partner who WANTS to establish a peaceful relationship with you. Today Israel doesn’t have such a partner.

 

Unless and until that changes then forget it. The best that Israel can do is to continue to keep their enemies either too subdued and frightened to do anything and too absolutely certain of massive retaliation if they do.

 

Eygpt, Jordan, Turkey ... major parts of the Muslim word that have peace treaties and security cooperation with Israel. Your view of the Muslim world is slanted to reflect your own biases and distortions.

 

Yes Israel needs a partner for peace, and I fully admit it doesn't have one in Lebanon at the moment. But Israel is weakening the moderates and strengthening the extremists in Lebanon, Syria and Iran with its actions.

 

Not even the Prime Minister of Iraq would support George Bush in his analysis of the situation because of fear about public opinion in the Bagdad street which almost unanimously, whether Sunni or Shi'ite, has even less willingness to compromise with Israel as a result of what has happened in the last few weeks.

 

With Al Qaeda rooting for Shias in attacking Israel, can you really not see what a wasps nest you have choosen to open. You'll say that wasp nest was always there and had to be destroyed at one time or another, but that wasp nest was marginalized and had less and less to feed from while a peace process was ongoing in Lebanon. Now it is centre stage again and can gain support much more widely.

 

Don't you get that?

[Celt]

I have been and I'm still trying to keep an open mind on this but it becomes more off a struggle each passing day.

 

I would like to say however that if I took PK's and the ROG views is how all the supporters of Israel and it's cause shows it's support, then I would find it very hard to except them views.

 

I've gone to other sites and got much fairer and thruthfull discriptions from both sides as to the problems and possible solutions. Both from Moslems and Jew. I can therefore keep an open mind and hopefully there are still enough open minded people in the UN to come up with a peacefull solution.

 

I find that the the PK and ROG idea of, " Bomb the Crap out of them, whoever they are " totally unacceptable as an idea and it only reminds me off the old westerns where they said, " The only good Indian is a dead one ".

 

You both seem to be as much Indoctrinated into your ideas and beliefs an any Terrorist Orginisation and seem quite prepared to exterminate any way of life that is different. Maybe that " Gung-Ho " approuch was a free gift from the USA.

 

As stated, I've still got an open mind about it in spite of the above and the only real opinion I have so far is that I very much doubt a Cease Fire can come into force with any real impact until the UN bring all it's powers against the US and the Governor of the 51st State, Mr Blair's, Foreign Policy.

 

The only thing I can actually agree with is this,

 

When I see a dead child, especially one that has been killed as a result of the violence of adults, all I see is a dead child.

 

I don’t see an arab child, an Israeli child, a moslem child, or any ‘kind’ of child, all that I see is a dead child and it cuts me up. It really does. What I see is a lost opportunity, a lost future, a lost happiness, a loss. Who can tell what that child may have grown up to be? So many things possible, so much opportunity lost.

 

All lost as a result of violence by adults.

 

However going by previous posts I very much doubt if there's an once of sincerity in it. Wiping them of the face of the earth and to " Nuke Them " give's , imo, no credability whatsoever.

[manxchatterbox]

see Revalations and expect the four and twenty elders mentioned therein (ie the House of Keys) to deal with this issue before the apocalypse.

[Lonan3]

see Revalations and expect the four and twenty elders mentioned therein (ie the House of Keys) to deal with this issue before the apocalypse.

Please return to the local forum - your mind is too small to deal with anything other than dog crap.

[manxchatterbox]

18kg warhead launcghed from the ground v. 5000lb precision guided bomb dropped from a high altitude bomber... an unequal fight and a disproportionate use of power and might...

 

 

 

Israel said its air force had dropped 23 tons of explosives Wednesday night alone in Beirut, in an effort to penetrate what was believed to be a bunker used by senior Hezbollah officials.

http://arabist.net/archives/2006/07/22/us-...r-the-israelis/

 

 

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0279.shtml

 

v.

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm

 

 

If your Jewish I hope your hanging your head in shame at the actions of the Israeli government....

[The Old Git]

18kg warhead launcghed from the ground v. 5000lb precision guided bomb dropped from a high altitude bomber... an unequal fight and a disproportionate use of power and might...

 

So what's your solution?

 

Ignore the rockets packed with ball bearings that are aimed at your cities, or perhaps handicap your own forces, maybe tie one hand behind their backs, or perhaps scoop out about 4960lb of HE from the bombs?

 

I can't think of any other army that has deliberately downgraded its own forces to match a weaker enemy