Israel

[P.K.]

I find that the the PK and ROG idea of, " Bomb the Crap out of them, whoever they are " totally unacceptable as an idea and it only reminds me off the old westerns where they said, " The only good Indian is a dead one ".

I agree with you. Unless the strike is properly targeted it is a waste of a mission and the munitions expended.

 

I think the IDF has now realised that Winston Churchill was right in that you can only hold the ground with men. So I suspect the US has given the IDF about 10 days to beat the crap out of Hezbollah before trying to get in an international peace-keeping mission. Of course, they will have to reduce Hezbollah to a force not worthy of consideration before peacekeepers can come in i.e. they have to have a peace to keep. That has proven not as easy as the IDF thought it would be. It must be very galling for the IDF. They could flatten any Lebanese town or village they chose to but they can't because they need the international community on their side to achieve their aims. Yet Hezbollah continue to fire their rockets at civilians with complete disregard for the lives of non-combatants. Gosh, how brave are THEY?

 

So for me the next few days are crucial. If the IDF can't force a conclusion then we'll all be back in this same place a few years from now. Wait and see mode.

[Phildo]

It's pointless saying anything about dead kiddies because, put simply, neither Rog - or, it would seem, the rest of Israel gives a flying damn. They're not children or even humans to him, they're simply rats who propagate at will and neeed to be exterminated to avoid future trouble. The product of a race of animalistic untermensch.

 

I'd guess it's been said before and it's one of the inevitable pitfalls of internet discussion boards that, eventually, someone will compare another poster to the Nazis, but in Rog's case the comparison has always struck me as being horribly accurate. His view of Moslems seems - from past posts - to be pretty damn similar to Hitler's views of the Jews and I'm pretty sure he'd advocate a similar "Final Solution" while failing completely to see the horrible irony.

[Chinahand]

I can't think of any other army that has deliberately downgraded its own forces to match a weaker enemy

 

 

I don't think that's true, the world is full of limited wars. Kosovo is one example ... Nato only used a tiny fraction of the power it could bring down on Milosovich ... even Vietnam ... the bombing of the North was militarily useful, but politically unacceptable and so was stopped. The US is full of generals claiming they could have won it if they'd been allowed to use all their firepower. The Korean war ... McArthur wanted to use nukes, Eike said F-off and the result was a full scale US/UN collapse only rescued by the Pusan landings and thousands of additional deaths.

 

Military force is limited by the political situation. This has been a truism since war began. This is what I don't understand by this situation ... Israel has all the military might, but an incredibly weak political hand ... they've had 20 years of loosing out to asymetric warfare in Lebanon ... body bags and failure, resulting in a unilateral withdrawl ... and now they are starting the whole thing up again ... the mad Mullahs must be rubbing their hands with glee.

[P.K.]

It's pointless saying anything about dead kiddies because, put simply, neither Rog - or, it would seem, the rest of Israel gives a flying damn. They're not children or even humans to him, they're simply rats who propagate at will and neeed to be exterminated to avoid future trouble. The product of a race of animalistic untermensch.

 

I'd guess it's been said before and it's one of the inevitable pitfalls of internet discussion boards that, eventually, someone will compare another poster to the Nazis, but in Rog's case the comparison has always struck me as being horribly accurate. His view of Moslems seems - from past posts - to be pretty damn similar to Hitler's views of the Jews and I'm pretty sure he'd advocate a similar "Final Solution" while failing completely to see the horrible irony.

I don't agree with the way Rog stirs up the prats like Tugger but then maybe there is some history there that I am unaware of. So I hesitate to condemn in case I do not have the full story. However you mention children and I know that Rog is a parent. As a parent myself I can assure you that to state that "They're not children or even humans to him, they're simply rats who propagate at will and neeed to be exterminated to avoid future trouble" you're making yourself look very very stupid indeed.

[P.K.]

Military force is limited by the political situation. This has been a truism since war began. This is what I don't understand by this situation ... Israel has all the military might, but an incredibly weak political hand ... they've had 20 years of loosing out to asymetric warfare in Lebanon ... body bags and failure, resulting in a unilateral withdrawl ... and now they are starting the whole thing up again ... the mad Mullahs must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Well, just maybe the bit you don't understand is that Israel relies on the foremost defender of democracy, the USA, just to survive. So they can't just flatten the women and children Hezbollah are using as human shields without risking that support. And Israel is NOT starting it up again, Hezbollah did it for them. So I'm sure they view it as an opportunity to quite rightly finger-point at Hezbollah as the aggressor and end up with a secure Lebanese border courtesy of the UN or NATO. All they want is to be left alone.

[Phildo]

It's pointless saying anything about dead kiddies because, put simply, neither Rog - or, it would seem, the rest of Israel gives a flying damn. They're not children or even humans to him, they're simply rats who propagate at will and neeed to be exterminated to avoid future trouble. The product of a race of animalistic untermensch.

 

I'd guess it's been said before and it's one of the inevitable pitfalls of internet discussion boards that, eventually, someone will compare another poster to the Nazis, but in Rog's case the comparison has always struck me as being horribly accurate. His view of Moslems seems - from past posts - to be pretty damn similar to Hitler's views of the Jews and I'm pretty sure he'd advocate a similar "Final Solution" while failing completely to see the horrible irony.

I don't agree with the way Rog stirs up the prats like Tugger but then maybe there is some history there that I am unaware of. So I hesitate to condemn in case I do not have the full story. However you mention children and I know that Rog is a parent. As a parent myself I can assure you that to state that "They're not children or even humans to him, they're simply rats who propagate at will and neeed to be exterminated to avoid future trouble" you're making yourself look very very stupid indeed.

And you're making yourself look very patronising indeed.

 

Yes. VERY good.

 

This evil thing that hez-b'allah kicked off has boomeranged right back into their lap.

 

That they have operated from amongst their own families shows just what filth they are.

 

And yes, if the families are equally indoctrinated with so much hate then although I do regret that innocent kids have been so corrupted and / or are treated as having such little value as the hez-b'allah filth seem to do, then every dead member of such a corrupted family killed is one less for an Israeli person to kill or be killed by in the future.

 

That's how it works in such a war.

 

Yes, it's going VERY well.

 

No regret shown there for the children killed. Just because one is a parent, one does not necessarily empathise with children. Heinrich Himmler had children. Josef and Magda Goebbels had six (I think). They didn't show much empathy for Jewish/Gypsy/retarded/Slavic children, now, did they - or in the Goebbels' case even for their own?.

 

Josef Mengele had a son. Would you try and use that to illustrate that he couldn't have been all that bad?

 

Stalin had children. Didn't stop him being responsible for the deaths of millions of them himself. Slobodan Milosevic had children. Saddam Hussein has children. Fred and Rose West had children.

 

Need I really go on?

 

Rog is more than capable of waging his own war of words with his detractors. And - you know what - I wouldn't be massively surprised if he actually agreed pretty much with what I've said (in essence it's nothing he hasn't said himself) - if not how I've said it (can't see him agreeing with the "Nazi" accusations, somehow).

[Tugger]

I get the impression that I've actually made PK cry on this thread. He can barely go a single post without mentioning me.

 

Aawwwwwwwwwww

[Phildo]

I get the impression that I've actually made PK cry on this thread. He can barely go a single post without mentioning me.

 

Aawwwwwwwwwww

It must be love...

[LoneWolf]

First in answer to Albert, you seem to be making a habit of wilfully misunderstanding

posts which dont fit your own "world view".

Sorry, the question of whether restraint is being exercised has been answered. Israel and Hezbollah are not considered to be demonstrating sufficient restraint – demonstrated by the number of civilian casualties, the draft UN resolution (vetoed by the US and UK) as well as other political statements made around the world highlighting the term “disproportionate force”. In this context, this makes PK’s point and your response irrelevant, as the majority of world governments disagree.

With all due respect this is not an appropriate response to a bland statement of fact initially made by PK ....

Here is something to consider. The IDF fights in uniform. It goes for specific Hezbollah targets. It could bomb any Lebanese town or village flat if it wanted to, but it doesn't. It is mindful of civilian casualties. They are to be avoided if possible but are regrettable if not.

If you do not consider this to be factual Im afraid you either underestimate the capabilities of the world's

4th largest military power or have totally failed to grasp the semantics of the statement made by PK. Nothing there about "disproportionate force " or, for that matter, about anything else you have chosen to include in your response.

Furthermore, and With all due respect, it is not for you to determine whether or not my opinion or PK's opinion have relevance. Who made you the arbiter of what is and what isnt relevant? Is the opinion of the Israeli Government relevant? Or is it that you think any opinion contrary to your own lacks relevance?

A little attention to semantics, notwithstanding your off hand dismissal ...

That will only be achieved when the US and the UK give back the UN its authority and its remit to pursue war criminals - not via the semantics, petty points of soldiering, or definitions of terrorism you are currently 'ranting' about.

........

would help you grasp the difference between diplomatic recognition and the intent of my simple statement that

"Israel is the only State in the area which most of us in the West would recognise as a democracy."

On the other hand you might genuinely believe Lebanon,notwithstanding the fact Hezbollah rules large areas of the South, is a democracy. I would beg to differ.

It is a country which tolerates and is is ruled, in part, by terrorists.

 

I think it might be more productive to engage ChinaHand's points as to where things might end.

 

Some people, myself included, think Israel has to go a little further before any ceasefire could be possible

or desirable. No nation state should have to tolerate the existence of a large scale terrorist infrastructure

along its borders. For the avoidance of doubt Israel has the right to defend itself. Hezbollah does not

enjoy equal status with Israel or any other nation state

[although you might be forgiven for thinking the opposite is the case in this thread]

On that basis, in my opinion, any ceasefire which would preserve the status quo would be undesirable and premature.

PK has made the point on several occasions that this will inevitably result in civilian casualties and this is regrettable if unavoidable. But we shouldnt forget Lebanon could and should have done something about this over the last 6 years.... something for the Arab apologists to ponder over.

There is an over riding requirement for Hezbollah to be driven back from Israel's borders and there is little

if any evidence that anyone other than Israel is prepared to do it.

[LoneWolf]

And Israel is NOT starting it up again, Hezbollah did it for them.

 

Indeed. People seem to have lost sight of this.

[Phildo]

No nation state should have to tolerate the existence of a large scale terrorist infrastructure along its borders.

O/T - so sorry for that - but, although I agree with this statement, it made me think.

 

The US only appears to hold this view with any degree of conviction where Israel is concerned. It has, in the recent past, seemed perfectly acceptable to them to fund, supply & encourage large-scale terrorist groups in Ireland and Nicaragua - amongst others...

[Gladys]

Well, you boys are doing a great deal to sort this mess out. And mess is what it is. You are just like kids scrapping in the playground 'No, he started it", " No, I didn't, he did". etc. etc.

 

Now, if that same mentality is being brought to bear on this problem, then no wonder things are going pear-shaped.

 

Thank you for all for your learned views, incisive analysis and tactical gambits.

 

But I swear, as long as there are people like you boys, these problems will never be resolved.

 

You are all doing a great job.

[LoneWolf]

Well, you boys are doing a great deal to sort this mess out. And mess is what it is. You are just like kids scrapping in the playground 'No, he started it", " No, I didn't, he did". etc. etc.

 

Now, if that same mentality is being brought to bear on this problem, then no wonder things are going pear-shaped.

 

Thank you for all for your learned views, incisive analysis and tactical gambits.

 

But I swear, as long as there are people like you boys, these problems will never be resolved.

 

You are all doing a great job.

 

Surprisingly enough Gladys I dont think anyone here believes an internet forum will ever be able to solve the middle east problems..... even if we could reach agreement on anything at all.

[Gladys]

No, you are probably right LW. So why bother expending energy on this forum, instead of expending energy elsewhere which may actually make a difference?

 

Ho, hum, better stay out of this thread as I do not understand the cowboy and indian mentality of you boys.

 

Back to lost kittens!

[P.K.]

And you're making yourself look very patronising indeed.

No regret shown there for the children killed. Just because one is a parent, one does not necessarily empathise with children. Heinrich Himmler had children. Josef and Magda Goebbels had six (I think). They didn't show much empathy for Jewish/Gypsy/retarded/Slavic children, now, did they - or in the Goebbels' case even for their own?.

 

Josef Mengele had a son. Would you try and use that to illustrate that he couldn't have been all that bad?

 

Stalin had children. Didn't stop him being responsible for the deaths of millions of them himself. Slobodan Milosevic had children. Saddam Hussein has children. Fred and Rose West had children.

 

Need I really go on?

Nope. You've already shown how stupid you can be. So Fred and Rose West had children? How very relevant not.

 

Qana is history repeating itself, absolutely dreadful. But as I have said before supporters of either side do not have a monoply on compassion. Don't worry, I don't actually expect you to understand that....