Israel

[Ringwraith]

Don't wonder --- ask!

 

 

OK, PK did you send offensive PM's to Jaqueline? Did she say that what you sent her sickened her to her stomach?

 

Same questions to you Rog.

 

Still doing well by the way Rog? How many misssiles have been launched in the last 2 days?

 

Have you taken that border town that was supposedly taken 3 weeks ago yet?

 

How many innocent women and kids have the brave Israeli army and air force killed now and how many Hezbollah?

 

How much support does Israel have around the world now and how much support has it lost?

 

And by the way I don't believe you were joking about Adolf choosing the wrong race ( he chose them as well by the way it's just that the Jews were even higher on his list) just because you used a smiley.

[Lonan3]

International Herald Tribune. August 4, 2006

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/08/04/...hting_Raids.php

 

Southern Beirut has been attacked repeatedly by Israeli warplanes since fighting began July 12. It is predominantly Shiite Muslim and largely controlled by Hezbollah guerrillas.

 

But surprisingly, Israeli warplanes struck in the Christian areas north of Beirut where Hezbollah has no support and has no presence. However, it may be part of Israel's attempt to pressure the Lebanese government to accept its conditions for ending the fighting by cutting off Lebanese regions.

 

Christian areas have largely been spared attacks.

 

The sharp expansion of the aerial bombing campaign against Lebanon came a day after Hezbollah fired a large number of rockets on Israeli towns.

 

It also came hours after Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah, in a speech televised Thursday, threatened to launch missiles at Tel Aviv, Israel's largest metropolis, if Israel attacks Beirut proper. He also offered to halt rocket attacks on Israel in return for an end to the air attacks

[Lonan3]

This article, from yesterday, also makes very intertesting reading

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/03/opinion/edbouck.php

 

Israel's claims about pin-point strikes and proportionate responses are pure fantasy. As a researcher for Human Rights Watch, I've documented civilian deaths from bombing campaigns in Kosovo and Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq. But these usually occur when there is some indication of military targeting: high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's regime present in a house just before it is hit, for example, or an attack against militants that causes the collateral deaths of many civilians.

In Lebanon, it's a different scene. Time after time, Israel has hit civilian homes and cars in the southern border zone, killing dozens of people with no evidence of any military objective.

My notebook overflows with reports of civilian deaths. On July 15, Israeli fire killed 21 people fleeing from Marhawin, including 13 children; no weapons, no Hezbollah nearby. On July 16, an Israeli bomb killed 11 civilians in Aitaroun, including seven members of a Canadian-Lebanese family on vacation; again, no Hezbollah, no weapons. On July 19, at least 26 civilians were killed in Srifa when Israeli bombs flattened an entire neighborhood; no evidence of military targets. On July 23, at least seven civilians were killed when Israeli warplanes bombed dozens of cars trying to flee the south after receiving Israeli instructions to evacuate immediately; no indication of weapons convoys in the vicinity. The list goes on, with about 500 civilians killed so far.

Israel says the fault for the massive civilian death toll lies with Hezbollah, claiming its fighters are hiding weapons inside civilian homes and firing them from civilian areas. But even if the Israeli forces could show evidence of Hezbollah activity in some civilian areas, it could not justify the extensive use of indiscriminate force that has cost so many lives.

Not only has Israel failed to distinguish between military and civilian targets; its own officials suggest that they have decided any civilian still in the south is fair game. Last week, Justice Minister Haim Ramon reportedly said, "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

So if you are too frightened to flee southern Lebanon, or are sick, injured or too poor to pay the more than $1,000 it now costs to get out, you are a "terrorist" and eligible for attack. As for those who heeded the Israeli warnings to flee, the roads are littered with bombed civilian cars, many with white flags still attached to their windows. After all, the Israelis tell us, they could have been transporting arms. Israel is prefabricating excuses to justify killing civilians.

Tragedies happen in the fog of war, but Israel's strikes on civilians can't all be excused as accidents or mistakes. The unacceptably high death toll is the natural result of Israel's failure to distinguish between civilian and military targets, and Israel is responsible for the deaths.

Israel must target its fight on Hezbollah, not Lebanese civilians. To do otherwise is not only wrong, but may very well be criminal, and Israel's leaders, and its friends elsewhere in the world, must face up to this harsh reality.

[Rog]

 

Don't wonder --- ask!

 

 

Same questions to you Rog.

 

To whom I did or did not send PM’s is NONE OF YOUR BUISNESS.

 

 

Still doing well by the way Rog? How many misssiles have been launched in the last 2 days?

 

One would betwo too many!

 

Have you taken that border town that was supposedly taken 3 weeks ago yet?

 

No – turned it to dust.

 

How many innocent women and kids have the brave Israeli army and air force killed now and how many Hezbollah?

 

Innocents? None that I know of. Ask hez-b'allah - they're the ones who stopped them leaving and so put in harms way any unaligned 'civilians'.

 

How much support does Israel have around the world now and how much support has it lost?

 

Lost? None.

 

Continued support? More than enough!

 

NOTHING has changed.

 

And by the way I don't believe you were joking about Adolf choosing the wrong race ( he chose them as well by the way it's just that the Jews were even higher on his list) just because you used a smiley.

 

Then you would be wrong again.

 

And we're STILL doing good!

 

We are doing for ourselves what no one else has been willing to do for us --- defending Israel.

[Ringwraith]

To whom I did or did not send PM’s is NONE OF YOUR BUISNESS.

 

You told me to ask and your reply speaks volumes.

 

 

One would betwo too many!

 

A. Over 400 so you are obviously failing miserably.

 

No – turned it to dust.

 

Wrong again, you have still not managed to stifle the resistance in a border town a few hundred yards over the border let alone crush Hezbollah as you have claimed you are doing.

 

Innocents? None that I know of. Ask hez-b'allah - they're the ones who stopped them leaving and so put in harms way any unaligned 'civilians'.

 

Wrong again, about 700 or so innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army and air force in numerous incidents some of which may well be war crimes. About 200 or so of these innocents are children. Added to this about 1 million people have been displaced trapped not by Hezbolah but by the Israeli's who bombed the escape routes i.e. roads, airports and ports and blocked off any possible escape.

 

Lost? None.

 

Continued support? More than enough!

 

NOTHING has changed.

 

Everything has changed, you have lost support all over the world and pressure is mounting against you.

 

Then you would be wrong again.

 

I don't believe you!

 

And we're STILL doing good!

 

No, you are not.

 

We are doing for ourselves what no one else has been willing to do for us --- defending Israel.

Maybe nobody else believes your cause is just enough!

[Rog]

'Ringwraith'

 

You told me to ask and your reply speaks volumes.

 

Really. And what do you think that it says?

 

'Ringwraith'

 

How many rockets fell?

 

One would be two too many!

 

'Ringwraith'

 

. Over 400 so you are obviously failing miserably.

 

Not at all. Look at OUR losses compared with the losses experienced by the filth who indiscriminately fire on civilians with no attempt to direct fire at strategic targets. Also look at the missiles. Glorified (but very dangerous) bonfire night specials.

 

The rebel village --- and it being turned it to dust.

 

'Ringwraith'

---you have still not managed to stifle the resistance in a border town a few hundred yards over the border let alone crush Hezbollah as you have claimed you are doing.

 

Which one?

 

'Ringwraith' Asks about ‘innocent civilians’ Innocents?

 

None that I know of. Ask hez-b'allah - they're the ones who stopped them leaving and so put in harms way any unaligned 'civilians'. In any case there is strong argument that as hez-b'allah treat their families as tools of war they are consequently legitimate targets.

 

They breed ‘em, we weed ‘em.

 

'Ringwraith' (and casualty numbers)

 

Wrong again, about 700 or so innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army and air force in numerous incidents some of which may well be war crimes. About 200 or so of these innocents are children. Added to this about 1 million people have been displaced trapped not by Hezbolah but by the Israeli's who bombed the escape routes i.e. roads, airports and ports and blocked off any possible escape

 

 

Rubbish. Major roads and facilities that would be used for the transport of strategic supplies have been made unavailable. Minor roads that civilians could have used were let intact and more than a few used them. Those that stayed either wanted to or were prevented from leaving by hez-b’allah.

 

 

'Ringwraith' asks about loss of support ---

 

Lost? None.

 

Continued support? More than enough!

 

NOTHING has changed.

 

'Ringwraith'

 

Everything has changed, you have lost support all over the world and pressure is mounting against you.

 

 

NOTHING has changed. those who claim to be withdrawing support have never done anything worth a damm in the past anyway. What loss is someone who has never been of help?

 

None.

 

'Ringwraith' comments on the way that I dealt with a nsty dig by another poster.

 

I don't believe you!

 

Then you would be wrong.

 

Regarding progress I commented

And we're STILL doing good!

 

'Ringwraith' replied

 

No, you are not.

 

Look at the statistics, the casualties compared to ours, the continued progress we're making. We're doing very good. The one message that comes out of this is how fortunate it is that the action was started at a time of OUR choosing and not that we had to defend against the now universally obvious to all immanent invasion from the North.

 

We are doing for ourselves what no one else has been willing to do for us --- defending Israel.

 

To which 'Ringwraith' observes

 

Maybe nobody else believes your cause is just enough!

 

And to which I smile confidently and reply ---

 

The ones that matter do.

[ans]

If you want to stand any chance of that being legible you'll need to reduce the number of quote tags. I'm not increasing it any more.

[Rog]

If you want to stand any chance of that being legible you'll need to reduce the number of quote tags. I'm not increasing it any more.

 

I think that I've catered for that.

[Chinahand]

It looks like the first UN resolution is close to been voted on:

 

BBC Clicky

 

I wonder if it will be under chapter seven? Even so it looks like there will be a lot of leeway to allow violence to continue. Israel will end offensive actions ... now there is a lot of wiggle room in that ... I can imagine Rog saying the entire conflict has been a defensive action! ... but anyway lets hope its a START to a peace process.

 

Not the begining of the end, but the end of the begining ... to quote someone quite well known.

[Rog]

It looks like the first UN resolution is close to been voted on:

 

BBC Clicky

 

I wonder if it will be under chapter seven? Even so it looks like there will be a lot of leeway to allow violence to continue. Israel will end offensive actions ... now there is a lot of wiggle room in that ... I can imagine Rog saying the entire conflict has been a defensive action! ... but anyway lets hope its a START to a peace process.

 

Not the begining of the end, but the end of the begining ... to quote someone quite well known.

 

I put little faith in the UN or its resolutions however I also hope it's coming towards the end of the defensive action by Israel.

 

An end, but not before as many of the enemy and their supporters of ALL kinds be they civilian supporters, of which there are many, or their families who have supported them, have been killed, maimed, or otherwise taken out of the possibility of being a future threat.

 

I detest the thought of the innocent being hurt in war, but on the other hand radicalised civilians who support the enemy are no longer innocent civilians. They are entirely legitimate targets.

 

Meantime I firmly am of the opinion that we should continue to go balls out in the theatres of war which by now, and after the warnings for the uninvolved to get out, should become free fire zones.

[Gladys]

I was going to reply:

 

"You really are a dick Rog! Directing operations from the safety of Norwich, or whichever God forsaken contourless piece of England you live in, with intentionally inflamatory remarks. You are a troll, I'm sure of it now!"

 

but, thought better of it!

[Rog]

I was going to reply:

 

"You really are a dick Rog! Directing operations from the safety of Norwich, or whichever God forsaken contourless piece of England you live in, with intentionally inflamatory remarks. You are a troll, I'm sure of it now!"

 

but, thought better of it!

 

I no longer live only in Norwich having bought a second home, but that's besides the point.

 

And they're not "intentionally inflammatory remarks", they're what I HONESTLY believe in as do many many others and especially IN israel where the 'rubber meats the road'.

 

I guess that on the Island people simply can't grasp the enormity of what Israel faces every day nor the nature of the enemy, certainly there is no evidence of any understanding of islam, and so all that can be seen is the horror of war.

 

Maybe if more people on this forum actually KNEW what they were pontificating about the discourse might be more balanced and it most certainly would be much more favorably inclined towards Israel as a nation.

 

Also less critical about what HAS to have been done, as well as what now must continue to BE done before the defensive action can be stood down from the proactive aggressive stage.

 

No, Gladys, I’m no troll.

[Gladys]

'rubber meats the road'.

WTF does that mean?

 

No, Rog, I am the first person to accept that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion, but when that opinion really just boils down to spouting bile without any acceptance of the validity of a counter argument, then I call that opinion bigotry.

 

No, I have no idea what it must be like to live in Israel, just as I have absolutely no idea what it is like to live in Beirut. Do you?

 

BTW, if you have bought a second home and no longer live in Norwich, then I think you have actually just bought another first home, Nitpicking, I know, but you bring that out in me.

[haX0red_Account]

'rubber meats the road'.

WTF does that mean?

 

No, Rog, I am the first person to accept that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion, but when that opinion really just boils down to spouting bile without any acceptance of the validity of a counter argument, then I call that opinion bigotry.

 

No, I have no idea what it must be like to live in Israel, just as I have absolutely no idea what it is like to live in Beirut. Do you?

 

BTW, if you have bought a second home and no longer live in Norwich, then I think you have actually just bought another first home, Nitpicking, I know, but you bring that out in me.

 

sensless killing of innocents I can handle, but there's no need for dropping meatloaf lyrics!

[joeyconcrete]

Not a nice situation.

 

Over 1000 Civilian deaths, a "draconian" curphew forbidding vehicular movements of any kind in Southern Lebanon, whether it be evacuees, aid workers, press or eh, Hezbollah. Rockets are still raining down on Israel. The ITV news correspondant who seemed quite annoyed with the new "rules" said it looks like Israel is making them up as it goes along. There's now growing opposition towards Israel throughout Lebanon.

 

The UN resolution is apparently pretty much what Israel wants with no real consultation with the Arabs and the process is slowing. The Arab nations will talk tomorrow about what they expect/want from the resolution - which looks like a complete Israeli withdrawal, and some form of peace 'force'. The Lebanese president says his people will not let Israel occupy Lebanon, they are a proud people who would not accept it (and who can blame them).

 

And on ITV News tonight, Benjamin Netanyahu says that whether the resolution uses the terms military offensive or defensive operation, Israel will carry on attacking regardless. He was also pointing the finger at Iran saying the west should address them together.

 

What a right old mess, no end in sight, and still innocent civilians (on both sides) are dying.