Israel

[Rog]

define innocent civilian.

 

Really.

[joeyconcrete]

define innocent civilian.

 

Really.

 

We'll define civilian

 

A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police

 

The "innocent" part is simply a matter of opinion.

 

The problem is Israel have their own ideas about who is associated with the military (Hezbollah) and who isn't. I see it as an easy way out when you bomb apartment blocks and residential areas.

 

It reminds me of a South Park episode where people weren't allowed to shoot animals unless they were attacked, people started shouting "it's coming right for us, shoot it!".

[LoneWolf]

With apologies for interrupting the ongoing slanging match I thought some of you might be interested in some background on Hezbollah. These documents were published in 2003 but are more than relevant to the current situation. Worth a read anyhow

 

Iran, Syria and Hezbollah

 

Hezbollah the global Terrorists

 

More if you want it

 

For info you dont need to install the language pack

[matty]

IMHO, what it seems to be , is if you're not sucking GWB's ass. then it's totally fine to kill and maim civillians, whether they be children, adults or what.

 

Both sides of the equation have broken UN resolutions, but IMHO this doesn't give Israel the "right" to totally destroy a sovereign nation's civilian infrastructure and murder (yes murder) countless civilians and innocent children.

 

As I see the situation at present, Israel & the US support for Israel, have totally distanced themselves from common sense, and basic human "decency" by the current war crimes being comitted by Israel.

 

I totally beleive Israel has a "right to self defense", but murdering children and innocent civilians, and destroying another country's infrastructure goes far above and beyond the right to self defense.

 

Israel should be "brought to book" for the war crimes committed, (the holocaust doesn't give Israel the right to commit the same sins that have happened to the Jews).

 

Israel removing themsleves from territories they have illegally occupied would be a small step in the right direction.

 

When these issues are resolved, then maybe (hopefully) this situation might move a bit closer to world peace.

 

Edited to add:-

 

Lonewolf, the above links you provided are all from an Israeli net domain, so it isn't possible to concede they may be from a "balanced", rather than "extremist" point of view.

[joeyconcrete]

Israel should be "brought to book" for the war crimes committed, (the holocaust doesn't give Israel the right to commit the same sins that have happened to the Jews).

 

Considering that members of the Serbian military are being tried for war crimes for burning villages etc, and for their apparent breach of the Geneva protocols it's interesting. I have not paid much attention to the Geneva convention but the Serbians are being tried for breaking it, but if you read some of the points of the protocols;

 

The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.

 

Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:

 

1. an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and

 

2. an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

 

Now it's pretty damn obvious that Hezbollah don't follow the Geneva convention, but I don't see that as an excuse for a civilised nation to be in breach of it. I guess the US/Israel would argue that in fact they are military targets and they didn't predict the civilian losses, I am not convinced.

 

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm

[Rog]

ponder this. It's by Irwin N. Graulich and he published ot on the 4th. of August so it's current.

 

Quote --

 

"Let me get this straight. You allow one of the largest terrorist organizations in the world to set up shop throughout your country. You permit them to completely take over the entire southern third of Lebanon and you claim to have seen nothing.

 

You allow the terrorists to build sophisticated, fortified bunkers and you did not see any heavy equipment building them. You allow the Hezbollah terrorists to move into many of your towns and villages, including the complete takeover of one of the largest neighborhoods in Beirut, where they proceed to build numerous, complex command and control centers...and then you claim ignorance.

 

 

 

 

 

You allow Hezbollah to store weapons, bombs and rockets in your basements. You turn a blind's eye when they carry arms into your restaurants, stores and buildings, yet you call yourself an "innocent civilian."

 

You watch the Hezbollah parades with hundreds of thousands of participants including children screaming, "Jihad. Death to Israel, Jews and Americans," burning American and Israeli flags, while goose-stepping soldiers with Nazi-like salutes receive your cheers--and all of you "innocent civilians" did not see a thing even though you were captured on videotape. All this, while Koffi Annan and much of the UN insist that "we should not believe our lying eyes about the innocent civilians."

 

There are giant posters of the rubenesque terrorist leader, Hasan Nasrallah, all over Lebanon with headlines declaring the imminent destruction of Israel. Yet you choose to elect this terrorist party to your government--and all of the so called "innocent Lebanese" do not know anything about anything.

 

Twenty thousand rockets and launchers are shipped into your country along with other military equipment by plane, truck and ship, and the government industrial complex knew absolutely nothing; and neither did all those "poor, innocent civilians" who are now crying.

 

So you allow the "Devil" into your homes and into your lives; you take the Devil's money, food and medicine; you sleep with the Devil...and get a serious evil disease. And then you blame the Jews, of course! Well, there is no sympathy for the devil...or his helpers!

 

The Lebanese "knowingly allowed (aka aided and abbetted)" murderous terrorists to proliferate in their sovereign nation. Like spoiled teenagers, they now refuse to take any responsibility. Of course there are some truly innocent civilians, but there were hundreds of thousands of beautiful German babies and mothers in Dresden and Berlin who were blown to bits. If an attack emanates from your country, the entire country is responsible. That is how life works and it is sometimes unfair.

 

I hate when people lie to my face and expect me to believe their vile fabrications. Does the Muslim world really think that the vast majority of Americans are that foolish? Only the quislings at CNN like Larry King, Nic Robertson, Wolf Blitzer, et al will fall for this Joseph Goebbals-style propaganda.

 

The confused, immoral left and their paper of record, The New York Times only see "innocent civilians throughout Lebanon." Europe, that moral bastion which gave birth to Nazism, will look at photos of men, women and children in despair, without putting the image into its proper context. Yet countries like Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland, who could not decide whether to support Hitler or Churchill during WWII, can drum up the moral authority to criticize Israel today. And leave it to Vichy, France 2006 headed by Jaques "Petain" Chirac to condemn Israel's response.

 

Seeing television snippets of wounded or dead Lebanese with people sitting on the ground crying and calling them all "innocent civilians" is the same as looking at a photograph of the armpit of Christie Brinkley and saying, "Here is the photo of a supermodel. Isn't she beautiful?" The armpit picture is only a part of the story. When human beings see babies or mothers hurting, no matter what, we feel the pain. If we saw baby pictures of Charles Manson, we would want to cuddle him.

 

We cannot look at photos of so-called "innocent civilians" in a vacuum. It is important for all "moral, decent" human beings to realize that the compassion emotion is similar to the sex emotion. Often times, it interferes with truth, logic and morality.

 

Listen up all you "Innocent Lebanese along with your innocent, Hezbollah supporting government." Do you want to know why your towns, villages and cities are smoldering? Do you want to know why 800,000 people are homeless and 600 are dead? Do you want to know why your infrastructure is devastated?

 

The answer is..."That the Jews are simply not going to pack up their little valises and walk into gas chambers again. The Jews will not be taken from their homes and marched into the Mediterranean Sea by Nazis or Hezbollah-Hamas-Syrian-Iranian, Nazi-like sympathizers.

 

The Jews in Israel or anywhere else are just not going to allow themselves to be shipped away like you dream about every day. Attention all radical Muslims throughout the entire world and Jacques Chirac. The Jews will not be walking into death camps or graves ever again, and if you dare try it, Qana, South Beirut, Tyre, Nabatiyeh, Bint Jbeil, Kounine, Beit Yahoun, Rashaya, Baalbek, Majdel Zoun, Ayt-a-Shab, etc. will all look a whole lot worse than Dresden and Berlin. And Tehran may become hotter than Hiroshima.

 

Attention Lebanon--your country is smoldering because Jews are sick and tired of being murdered. You keep pushing those pathetic, weak, Torah studying Jews by using terrorism and kidnapping soldiers, and all, yes all of Lebanon will be smoldering.

 

Listen very carefully enemies of Israel, because you are making a giant mistake. I urge any person that will be having dinner with Sayed Hassan Nesrallah, the big fat brave man hiding in his little rat hole while his fighters are being picked off like little olives on a tree, to make sure his life insurance is fully paid.

 

Mr. hero Nesrallah is just a pimp for Iran, sending out his Hezbollah terrorist hookers to "screw the Jews." The amazing thing is that Iran is not an Arab country. They should not be involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict. They do not border Israel, so there is no Iranian territorial dispute where they claim, like everyone else, that Israel occupies their land. Yet, Ahmadinejad's (pronounced--"a mad dog on Jihad") hatred for Jews and Israel rivals that of Adolf Hitler.

 

It is no wonder that the Iranian president feels this way since Israel is supreme in virtually every area--technically, militarily, scientifically, culturally, morally and religiously. Each attempt by macho Muslim/Arab countries to destroy Israel has been met with a totally devastating, humiliating defeat. Like Saddam, the skinny, little Ahmadinejad (pronounced "a mad dog on Jihad") aspires to be the big hero of the Muslim world.

 

What Ahmadinejad (pronounced "a mad dog on Jihad") does not comprehend, is that Israel will not use a tongue depressor when they capture him and his associates. The truth be told that should Iran dare make one wrong move directly on Israel, then Israel will simply "Beat the Shiite out of them!"

[joeyconcrete]

Interesting post, although "Irwin N. Graulich is a well known motivational speaker on morality, ethics, Judaism and politics". Still, interesting all the same.

 

The truth be told that should Iran dare make one wrong move directly on Israel, then Israel will simply "Beat the Shiite out of them!"

 

ITV News asked Benjamin Netanyahu just that question. Benjamin Netanyahu was saying how Iran was behind Hezbollah, supplying the missiles, weapons and funding the regime. The presenter asked why Israel didn't just invade Iran and address the root cause of the problem. He said it should be the responsibility of the west and the US to address the problem. This may be true, in which case, why hasn't the west been convinced and simply invaded Iran?

[Rog]

1) Oil

2) would spark off a full blown Jihad

3) resources tied up elsewhere

4) Eurabia

[mollag]

Just a quickie in case my memory fails me, didnt the US and GB arm Saddam against Iran, did we not arm the Mujadeen in Afganistan against the Soviets { Mr Bin Laden if im not mistaken] on Irans border, did we not invade the country next to Iran and turn into a living hell, are we not arming and financing guerilla movements in Iraq to send into Iran ? tell me again who the bad guys are?

[Ringwraith]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH BLAH....

What Ahmadinejad (pronounced "a mad dog on Jihad").

 

That might actually have been funny if it sounded anything like the way his name is pronounced, never mind though I bet it tickled you Rog and you couldn't wait to tell all your mates (sorry I mean PK) about it.

[Do the Navan Walk]

A List of United Nations Resolutions

 

________________________________________

A List of UN SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS against Israel

________________________________________

A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"

• 1955-1992:

• * Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".

• * Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".

• * Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".

• * Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".

• * Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".

• * Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".

• * Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".

• * Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".

• * Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".

• * Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".

• * Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".

• * Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".

• * Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".

• * Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".

• * Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".

• * Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".

• *Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".

• * Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".

• * Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".

• * Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".

• * Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".

• * Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".

• * Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".

• * Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".

• * Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".

• * Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".

• * Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".

• * Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".

• * Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".

• * Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

• * Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".

• * Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious

• obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".

• * Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".

• * Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".

• * Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member

• states not to assist Israel's settlements program".

• * Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".

• * Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of

• two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".

• * Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the

• council's order not to deport Palestinians".

• * Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide

• by the Fourth Geneva Convention".

• * Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".

• * Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its

• claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".

• * Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported

• Palestinian mayors".

• * Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's

• nuclear facility".

• * Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan

• Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".

• * Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".

• * Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".

• * Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".

• * Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and

• allow food supplies to be brought in".

• * Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions

• and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".

• * Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".

• * Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".

• * Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia

• in attack on PLO headquarters.

• * Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw

• its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".

• * Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students

• at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".

• * Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices

• denying the human rights of Palestinians.

• * Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly

• requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

• * Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".

• * Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.

• * Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.

• * Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians

• at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

• * Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United

• Nations.

• * Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of

• Palestinians.

• * Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and

• calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

• * Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.

• * Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians

• and calls for their immediate return.

[mollag]

A fair old list, all some other persons fault of course, does any other country come near for such a vast amount of resolutions?

[Ringwraith]

Oh, nice one!

 

NEWS

 

Keep up the 'GOOD WORK'.

[lectro]

Didn't you know the power station was a Hezbollah stronghold and wasn't really producing electricity at all. Of course it had to be destroyed and sod all the insgnificant consequences like not being able to run water treatment plants, hospitals and homes never mind the bloody environment. This is a war and all who stands in the way is a target - women, children, Mother Earth - all Hezbollah scum.

 

/Rog mode off

[Chinahand]

Looks like the diplomacy is unravelling! BBC Link

 

Israel has approved a major ground offensive after the failure of airpower and smash and grab raids to stop Hezbollah.

 

The Israeli deputy prime minister thinks it'll last at least another month ... things could get very problematic ... a chapter seven UN resolution requiring Israel to stop offensive operations ... its just not going to happen ... back to the drawing board.