Israel

[Bill Posters]

Such resolutions, binding on all UN members, never formed any of the resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict.

 

Well, it's clearly time they did then.

[Chinahand]

What the law says

 

The UN distinguishes between two sorts of Security Council resolution. Those passed under Chapter Six deal with the peaceful resolution of disputes and entitle the council to make non-binding recommendations. Those under Chapter Seven give the council broad powers to take action, including warlike action, to deal with “threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression”. Such resolutions, binding on all UN members, never formed any of the resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict.

 

I'm not sure what to make about this ... there is a very obvious reason why Israel has never had a Chapter Seven resolution passed against it, while having inumerable non binding and worthless Chapter Six condemnations ... any Chapter Seven resolution would be subject to an automatic US veto.

 

Some people will reply "and rightly so" ... In many of the cases I fully agree with you, but not all. I simply cannot defend Israel for being proportional in its responses to the terrorism it faces. It is not defensible to use of a thousand pound bomb to assassinate a terrorist leader in a city centre killing innumerable civillians, or to destroy a country's sanitation system because it is so weak it cannot control the actions of armed factions operating on its soil.

 

There is of course a huge difference between the collatoral damage caused by Israels military operations and the deliberate murder of civillians. But Israel is willing to accept levels of collatoral damage ... ie civillian deaths ... that are higher by several times the number of deaths caused by the terrorism in the first place. Some people will reply that these people are not civillians ... Rog has already done so in this thread. I suspect he'll say a 13 year old boy throwing stones at a tank destroying his house isn't a civillian: he has definitely said it of the 3 year old girl who's father just happens to be a member of Hamas. What about the millions of people who have no power, sanitation or transport infrastructure because of an indescriminate bombing campaign by Hamas and Hezbollah which has denied Israelis none of these things.

 

The terrorists who attack Israel justify their murder by saying settlers are no longer civillians and are legitimate targets. That is evil justifying evil and must be condemmed. However I have great difficulty defending Israeli actions which are not proportional and which target civillian infrastructure without pause for the consequences. The Geneva conventions provide clear responsibilities for combatants in their treatment of civilians. There is no doubt the terrorists totally ignore these conventions, however the UN secretary general and others have stated that Israel's actions are a disproportionate use of force which bears upon their responsibilities under the Conventions.

 

A bad business.

[Chinahand]

Correctomundo. Which is why the IDF is holding ALL of Lebanon responsible. If the State of Lebanon can't or won't enforce a UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah then ALL of Lebanon is responsible for their terrorist actions. It's not the fault of the IDF that the Labanon Armed Forces support Hezbollah to such a degree that the ONLY way they are going to stop the rockets is to turn the whole country against them. As I have said before it is so fractured and disporate it might just be not only the right tactic but the ONLY tactic that will stop the rockets. Time will tell.

 

I'm reminded of a US senator speaking before it was known the Oklahoma bombing had been committed by a right wing nut [or the CIA for all those conspiracy theorists out there ] and when the main suspects were Islamic extremists. He said the CIA should find out which governement had supported the bombing and the country should then be attacked. He then went on to say that if the government was not in control of all of the country and the terrorists were operating independently then the country should still be attacked to punish it and make it root out the terrorists. After it was descovered the bombing was undertaken by an American he was asked if he still wanted the Pentagon to carry out his demands ... his reply is unkown!

[P.K.]

Correctomundo. Which is why the IDF is holding ALL of Lebanon responsible. If the State of Lebanon can't or won't enforce a UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah then ALL of Lebanon is responsible for their terrorist actions. It's not the fault of the IDF that the Labanon Armed Forces support Hezbollah to such a degree that the ONLY way they are going to stop the rockets is to turn the whole country against them. As I have said before it is so fractured and disporate it might just be not only the right tactic but the ONLY tactic that will stop the rockets. Time will tell.

...and so of course all Brits would have been equally responsible for the actions of the IRA - had they attacked parts of the USA for e.g. !

Not even a good try. And they did take out the Taliban to get at Osama and his merry men.

 

The ones I feel sorry for are the Maronite Christians, the Sunnis and the Druze. They don't want an armed Hezbollah terrorist organisation in their country either but their infrastructure is being wrecked to try and turn Shia opinion against the nutters firing rockets.

 

Because the Lebanese state is so weak and their army mostly Shia i.e. Hezbollah supporters, if they can't be stopped from within then it looks like a UN action to police the south of the country.

 

So I guess from an Isreali standpoint the more they bomb the infrastructure the more pressure goes on Hezbollah supporters and the more pressure is applied on the UN to do something. Looks like a win/win from here.

[Albert Tatlock]

On MR Cease fire imminent says local expert

 

Someone's been watching newsnight!

[Rog]

The following is extracted from Honestreporting.com

 

It makes fair points.

 

Israeli military operations in Lebanon are taking place in response to an unprovoked border attack which left 8 Israeli soldiers dead and two kidnapped by the Hezbollah. Since then many more Israelis have been wounded and killed by over 700 Katyusha missiles that have rained down on Israel's northern cities, including as far south as Haifa and Tiberias. Israel is exercising her legitimate right to self-defence.

 

Myth - "Israel's response is disproportionate."

 

Fact - The definition of a "disproportionate" response is a subjective one. The question that could be asked of any other country in the world is simply: "What would you do in the same situation?" When protecting its citizens, exercising the right to self-defence and responding to missile attacks over a recognised border, most countries would respond in a similar manner. After all, how many Israelis need to die before the world believes that Israeli responses are proportionate?

 

Any civilian casualties in a conflict are, of course, tragic and regrettable. Civilians on both sides are suffering. However, Israeli air strikes on Lebanon are not intended to kill civilians, unlike the hundreds of Hezbollah missiles that are targeted specifically at Israeli civilians who have been forced into bomb shelters for their own safety. Israel has even dropped leaflets (http://tinyurl.com/n37nd) on Beirut suburbs calling on civilians to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds to avoid being caught up in the fighting.

 

Israel has also been criticised for targeting Lebanese infrastructure such as the Beirut airport. However, it is also interesting to note what has not been targeted (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738607.html). For example, while the airport runway was bombed, other vital installations such as the control tower were left untouched and Lebanese civilian airliners were allowed to fly to safety. Transport hubs and bridges have been targeted in order to prevent Hezbollah moving the kidnapped Israeli soldiers deeper into Lebanon and possibly even as far as Iran, as well as to prevent the terrorist organisation being re-supplied with arms from Iran and elsewhere.

 

Many of Hezbollah's facilities and missile launch sites are located near residential areas, such as the suburbs of southern Beirut. Terrorists hide within the civilian population and use this population as a shield. Israel's priority is to strike at the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure that has been allowed to develop in Lebanon.

 

Israel has, so far, avoided initiating a major ground offensive into Lebanese territory and has barely used a fraction of the firepower available to the IDF.

 

Myth - "Lebanon bears no responsibility for the actions of Hezbollah."

 

Fact - UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (http://tinyurl.com/q69xd) of September 2004, which referred back to Resolution 425, called "upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon"; "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias"; and supported "the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory".

 

Syria eventually complied with 1559 and removed its occupying forces. However, the Lebanese government has not disarmed Hezbollah nor has it sent its armed forces to secure southern Lebanon and the border with Israel.

 

In addition, Hezbollah is actually part of the Lebanese government (http://tinyurl.com/r2hmy), which contains two Hezbollah members in the Cabinet. The Lebanese government, therefore, cannot abstain from responsibility for the actions of a part of its own leadership.

 

Myth - "Hezbollah is an indigenous Lebanese 'resistance' organisation."

 

Fact - According to the Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/), the Hezbollah:

 

"is a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organisations. It opposes the West, seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modelled on Iran, and is a bitter foe of Israel. Hezbollah, whose name means "party of God," is a terrorist group believed responsible for nearly 200 attacks since 1982 that have killed more than 800 people.

 

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

 

- a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s; the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;

- the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane's pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;

- and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina - the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five)."

 

In addition, Hezbollah is sponsored, funded and armed by Iran and Syria who use the organisation as a proxy to fight Israel and to destabilise the region. Hezbollah is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organisation by the US State Department (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm).

 

Myth - "Outside actors such as Iran are not fuelling the crisis."

 

Fact - A number of analysts have suggested that the timing of the Hezbollah operation is no coincidence, occurring just prior to the G8 Summit in St. Petersburg. The G8 was expected to concentrate heavily on Iran's refusal to comply with demands to curtail its nuclear program. A wider Mideast crisis, provoked by Iran's Hezbollah proxies, has now moved to the top of the G8 agenda, thus relieving some of the pressure on Iran.

 

In addition, Iranian fingerprints are to be found in the current conflict. The Katyusha missiles that are currently raining down on the north of Israel are supplied by Iran. An Israeli Naval vessel was also struck by an Iranian-made C802 missile (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738695.html), killing four sailors.

 

Myth - "Israel continues to occupy Lebanese land, specifically the Shebaa Farms area."

 

Fact - On May 24, 2000, Israel completed the unilateral withdrawal (http://tinyurl.com/zzppf) of all IDF forces from southern Lebanon, in accordance with Israeli government decisions and UN Security Council Resolution 425 (http://tinyurl.com/zazvo), ending an 18-year presence there.

 

On June 18, 2000, the UN Security Council endorsed the Secretary-General's conclusion (http://tinyurl.com/mncm7) that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Resolution 425.

 

As explained by Israel's Foreign Ministry (http://tinyurl.com/z6xgt), the Shebaa Farms area is not, and should not be, considered disputed territory - its status was clarified by a number of United Nations statements following the withdrawal of Israel forces from Lebanon in May 2000.

 

The United Nations views the Shebaa Farms area as Syrian territory. Therefore, UN Security Council Resolution 425 - which concerns Lebanon - does not require Israel to withdraw from this area.

 

While Lebanon claims to be the owner of the Shebaa Farms area, the UN has encouraged the Lebanese and Syrians to negotiate between themselves as to who is the rightful owner. If Syria were to cede ownership of the area to Lebanon, then it is probable that Israel and the UN would then reconsider the status of the territory. In the meantime, the issue of the Shebaa Farms is used simply as an excuse for the Hezbollah to maintain itself as an armed force in the region.

 

Myth - "Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails were kidnapped from Lebanese soil and should be released."

 

Some Lebanese and other Arab spokespeople have defended Hezbollah's actions as a legitimate form of "resistance" aimed at securing the release of Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails from the period of Israel's presence in its southern Lebanon security zone.

 

Fact - The prisoner whom Hezbollah is demanding, above all others, be released, is Samir Kuntar, jailed in Israel since a 1979 attack in the northern Israeli town of Nahariyah, in which he entered an apartment and murdered three family members (http://tinyurl.com/jo2z6) and an Israeli police officer.

 

Kuntar is quite simply a terrorist and a murderer who committed a terrible atrocity on Israeli soil. Those prisoners held in Israeli jails captured during Israel's stay in southern Lebanon are, likewise, held for terrorist offences and due to the inherent risk that they will return to their previous activities.

[Lonan3]

The following is extracted from Honestreporting.com

 

It's not a site that I'd be entirely happy quoting from when it comes to any dispute involving Israel.

 

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/mission.asp

 

OUR MISSION

Israel is in the midst of a battle for public opinion – waged primarily via the media. To ensure Israel is represented fairly and accurately HonestReporting monitors the media, exposes cases of bias, promotes balance, and effects change through education and action.

 

When media bias occurs, our worldwide base of subscribers takes action by contacting news agencies, drawing issues of bias to their attention, and requesting changes. Media outlets, correspondents, and editors are now held accountable for biased reporting and are becoming more aware of the need for factual, impartial and fair reporting. Our subscribers also make use of our Communiqués to bolster their own knowledge and understanding of the often complex issues.

 

I think a somewhat more independent voice - rather than one that is dedicated to defending Israel - is required to get a genuinely balanced view, even if much of what they have is based on fact.

[Tugger]

honestreporting.com is about as unbiased as littlegreenfootballs.com

[Chinahand]

What I’m still thinking about is why this has all happened now?

 

Israel has had a modus operandi for Hezbollah attacks for 5 or so years. Responding to their attacks with counter battery, cross border raids etc the situations been at a status quo for years. Things have been positive politically recently. Israel have seen Syria progressively isolated and the Cedar Revolution leave Hezbollah the only armed faction left in Lebanon, under strong pressure to disarm.

 

Why has Israel now abandoned that incremental process for escalation? ... it’s a really high risk strategy. I suppose to be blunt it’s unlikely that huge numbers of Israelis will die, so they've decided they can afford to use violence in the hope it speeds things up. Maybe it will, but I can't see a peacekeeping force going in to disarm Hezbollah. I think its more likely there will be probably a couple of thousand Lebanese deaths with Israeli deaths in the low hundreds and then things will return to something like what was happening before ... a warrior Israel with few security guarantees left wondering what will come over the border in the night.

 

From what I can work out the bigger picture is relevant here. All this started off because Hamas led a raid into Israel that captured a soldier (whether he’s dead or alive isn’t known). This raid followed Hamas agreeing with the PLO to implicitly recognise a two states solution which was a big move on their part, but not enough to win them any recognition from even the EU let alone the US or Israel.

 

I’ve no doubt that Hamas deliberately planned the raid as a clear signal they weren’t conceding their right to attack right into Israel with the agreement with the PLO. What happens next is interesting. Hamas is by no means a unitary entity. Its prisoners away from the day to day violence and with time on their hands to think about what is the point of their violence have championed the agreement that a 2 states solution is possible. In Gaza they are more radical, but have the job of running a failed state which makes them more pragmatic and willing to make concessions for Euros. But the real nutters are based in Syria … died in the wool, out and out Israel exterminators who have cloaked their genocide with religious oaths and all.

 

What happens next; Hezbollah suddenly attacks Israel in what is clearly a sympathy strike … and where are the nutters in Hezbollah based … Syria.

 

For all Bush’s usual crass language his statement: “You see the irony is what they need to do is get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's all over...” isn’t totally off the mark.

 

Syria is isolated and unstable: it’s lost a lot its influence in Lebanon and the insurgency in Iraq and the risk of a pro-Western government successfully emerging in Iraq have added to its difficulties. Maybe Syria have seen this as a way to gain international recognition and aid etc … using Hamas and Hezbollah the same way Kim Jong-il uses missiles.

 

There’s a chance Syria will see sense and call of Hezbollah, but there is also a risk it will feel boxed in and could lash out, giving Hezbollah weaponry and a free rein. If that occurs well it’ll be big, nasty and many many people will die. Time will tell

[Rog]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

http://www.steam-packet.com/

[Rog]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

http://www.steam-packet.com/

 

Better, cheaper, cleaner, all round preferable.

 

http://www.elal.co.il/

[Chinahand]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

 

You Jingoistic Twat.

 

What do you think about this?

 

Why don't you find some pictures of dead Israeli kids too. So we can play tit for tat.

[Rog]

My God but we're doing a good job in The Lebanon.

 

Here's a vidio clip that sums up PRECISELY how I feel.

 

 

You Jingoistic Twat.

 

What do you think about this?

 

Why don't you find some pictures of dead Israeli kids too. So we can play tit for tat.

 

You want pictures of dead Israeli kids? Kids killed by homiciede bombers happas? Go look. There's no shortage.

 

Although at a basic human level I feel for any families who have lost kids, on another level I simply see it as payback time in return for the kids and innocent Israeli people killed by our enemies.

 

If they didn’t want to pay the price they shouldn’t have done what they did.

 

Again and again and again they did.

 

Israel held their hand for far longer than any reasonable people might in the hope that it might just be possible that following the death of the arch-dog arafat there might be enough people of good faith within the “palestinian” population who actually wanted peace, as so many outsiders seemed to think might be the case.

 

It has proved not to be so.

 

The election of hammas proved that.

 

Even then there was a glimmer of hope that hammas might split and the less fanatical of them might establish some sort of normal relationship with us.

 

This also proved not to be the case.

 

OK. They chose. Now they pay.

[Chinahand]

You want pictures of dead Israeli kids? Kids killed by homiciede bombers happas? Go look. There's no shortage.

 

No I don't and I know there is no shortage, but then again I don't go around jingoistically extolling what a good job is being done killing people ... seems you do.

 

Although at a basic human level I feel for any families who have lost kids, on another level I simply see it as payback time in return for the kids and innocent Israeli people killed by our enemies.

 

If they didn’t want to pay the price they shouldn’t have done what they did.

 

Again and again and again they did.

 

Who are they here Rog ... Don't you understand or accept that thousands of people who just want to keep their heads down and get on with their lives have had their loved ones killed, and their homes and livelihoods destroyed.

 

Israel held their hand for far longer than any reasonable people might in the hope that it might just be possible that following the death of the arch-dog arafat there might be enough people of good faith within the “palestinian” population who actually wanted peace, as so many outsiders seemed to think might be the case.

 

It has proved not to be so.

 

The election of hammas proved that.

 

Even then there was a glimmer of hope that hammas might split and the less fanatical of them might establish some sort of normal relationship with us.

 

This also proved not to be the case.

 

OK. They chose. Now they pay.

 

The people of Lebanon didn't elect Hamas, the people of Lebanon went through the Cedar revolution which isolated Hezbollah and drove its sponsor, Syria, from the country. The people of Lebanon voted for peace. If you think northern Lebanon: the Christians and Druze etc choose and now they pay you're a fool.

 

You treat all who could be neutral as your enemy rather than asking them to be your friend. Do you really think this is a way to make the Lebanese army your ally and go and fight your wars down in the south. Great strategy