Bnp Leaflets

[LoneWolf]

I think my point Vinnie is either: you have obviously one years experience that is 25 years old - or - are in your late twenties, graduated in politics or english, and have f*** all experience of real life.

 

I think you are being grossly unfair here Albert. Vinnie has put some valid points forward and IMHO he is probably the best poster on the forum.

I don't think so. And would add - probably the latter and probably English.

 

Well the thread began by discussing the surprise arrival of the BNP on the Island.

You made a number of good points and also made some controversial comments about the global economy and about the "English".

Vinnie has responded to your comments about the English and I think he has responded in a measured way.

Your comments did give the impression you have an unreasonable dislike of the English. I have already said I think that is probably not the case. I am also someone who finds English "Empire Loyalists " objectionable But in my experience the vast majority of English people are decent and hard working people.

We have always done quite well out of our relationship with England. Whether it be from the Common Purse, from tourism and latterly from financial services we have always had a good equitable relationship.

The English have also had a long time influence on Manx society. Most of our values are common values shared with the English and most of our interests are common interests shared with the English.

Most people dont have a problem with that provided we can maintain whatever it is that defines the Manx.

A night out in Peel might convince you Manx identity is alive and kicking.

Back to where we started .. the arrival of the BNP is a bad thing I think nearly everyone is agreed.

But lets not kick off our own localised version of it with a hate thing against our nearest neighbours

[Albert Tatlock]

Vinnie has responded to your comments about the English and I think he has responded in a measured way...

No he hasn't. Vinnie's post is fundamentally flawed as England is a country and NOT a race.

[scoobe]

England maybe a country, but its inhabited by english, if they aren't a race, what are they?

 

I think you are just playing at being a pedant to mask your racist views, as pointed out by vinnie.

 

I'm appalled at some of the sentiments shown in this thread, I expect the BNP are rubbing their hands in glee.

 

If its true these thugs intend to make a base here, then we have to form an opposition group against them. Most right minded people find the BNP abhorrant, and opposition has to be shown against this small, but vociferous, facist group.

[Albert Tatlock]

England maybe a country, but its inhabited by english, if they aren't a race, what are they?

 

I think you are just playing at being a pedant to mask your racist views, as pointed out by vinnie.

 

I'm appalled at some of the sentiments shown in this thread, I expect the BNP are rubbing their hands in glee.

 

If its true these thugs intend to make a base here, then we have to form an opposition group against them. Most right minded people find the BNP abhorrant, and opposition has to be shown against this small, but vociferous, facist group.

Both you and Vinnie should think before you fire off. Race is about the type of human being you are and the genetic stock you come from e.g. Mongolian, Caucasian etc. - not the country you live in. The English are not a race, and irish are not a race either (and so irish jokes are not racist).

 

There is a fundamental difference between racism and culturism and you obviously haven't read the posts properly if you are 'appalled'. The BNP are racist because of their views on Black/Asian immigration, and in several posts I have said that is abhorrent and their views are not welcome here. I also said that we don't have a problem with the kind of 'immigration' that the BNP speak of and that they have little chance of being elected. All I have said is that I don't want the current English 'culture' brought over here and the island changed into just another county of England. When you listen to most people who speak about the advantages of the Isle of Man they more often compare England versus Isle of Man. Many of us want to retain those differences.

 

The English living here are all immigrants, but English people here don't seem to like to hear that for some reason do they, probably because of UK media driven inherent racist hype as to what 'an immigrant' actually is i.e. the English all out for 25,000 asylum seekers (usually of a different race) many of whom are desperate for help and yet ignoring 200,000 + Poles and lots of other Eastern Europeans (funny enough most of whom are of the Caucasian race) taking peoples jobs and keeping wages low. That to me is English institutionalised racism and an example of one of the things I would like to see not imported to the island from England.

[simon]

The English living here are all immigrants, but English people here don't seem to like to hear that for some reason do they

 

You'll find very few Manx people who haven't got some non - IOM ancestors or relatives.

[Rog]

One thing is certain sure, if the BNP are expressing an interest in the IOM then it's no doubt down to the remaining scum-section wanting to take advantage of the differences in legislation between the Island and the Mainland regarding racial equality and sex equality legislation as the 'finance sector' does in the case of taxation.

 

The BNP don’t have any interest in “converting” Manx residents to their viewpoint, they just want to make use of the outmoded Manx legislation. An offshore and so untouchable base from which to generate publications and from where to distribute material that would be unlawful to do so on the Mainland.

 

Freedom to flourish? Uncontrolled cess pit more like.

[Albert Tatlock]

The English living here are all immigrants, but English people here don't seem to like to hear that for some reason do they

 

You'll find very few Manx people who haven't got some non - IOM ancestors or relatives.

Quite true - but if you've read my posts you will see that I am talking about the culture of the people who have lived here in recent history and of those who are living here now (whether they are from Pakistan or Petrborough) - because that is really what our culture represents. I really don't care where people are from as long as they defend, what is IMHO, an IOM culture that is worth defending - and leave most of their own culture behind and don't try to change ours e.g. by introducing a bulk of reciprocal laws, bringing over the BNP etc. etc.

 

In my opinion there are too many people coming here too quickly and little governmental planning or assessment of the impact of that e.g. more Manx people leaving than ever before. The census results simply show that the dominant immigrant group are English, but I would be saying the same if it were Scots.

[Chinahand]

Seems like I post this approximately every 6 months ... the UN definition of racism was defined in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1966 as:

 

...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

 

Please note the list: race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin.

 

It is about using classifications below that of Homo Sapiens to denegrate people. If you start spouting off about Germans or the Irish or Gypsies or Zulus or Chinese you are attacking people based on their ethnicity/nationality and the UN, along with most workers in the racism field, have agreed that this should be defined as racism. This deliberately wide definition was created to stop the types of behaviour Albert Tatlock is now indulging in ... I'm not racist I'm being Culturist, or ethnist or whatever the words are.

 

I really don't want this thread to get sidetracked into bickering about England vrs the Isle of Man.

 

I'd really like to concentrate on the fact the Island has been targeted by a political party who's policies are based on racism and the exclusion of people from society due to the colour of their skin, or where they were born, or where their anscestors were born. The BNP is anti-Polish immigrants too and would happily mobilize against Slavs and Gypsies, East Europeans etc.

 

These attitudes dehumanise and should be fought, and if someone tried to exclude the English from the Island or tried to stop employers or immigration officials making decisions based on individuals, insisting on ethnic/national/race criteria, I would want to fight it tooth and nail ... would you Albert? Doesn't sound like it.

[Politician]

The English are not a race, and irish are not a race either (and so irish jokes are not racist).

 

Technically this is incorrect. If you look at any race or equalities monitoring form, you will see that the Irish are now classified as a separate and distinct race (apart from "white Caucasian" or "Western European"). Baffles me too, but not as much as the latest addition to such forms, classifying the 30,000-odd people from Gibraltar ("Gibraltarian") as a discrete ethnic group.

 

The English living here are all immigrants, but English people here don't seem to like to hear that for some reason do they

 

As a comeover myself, I have no problem with that description, as it is no more or less than the truth.

 

My view is that the Isle of Man should have a strict immigration policy and closed borders, but this policy should have nothing to do with ethnicity or race. We should simply consider each applicant on his or her merits, and on the basis of whether he or she would be a net contributor to, or a net drain on, the Manx exchequer.

[Rog]

Of course the whole thing is predicated on the entirely false belief that there are no difference between the races.

 

The simple fact is that there are.

[Chinahand]

Oh the good old nature vrs nurture debate rears its ugly head ... people are different ... very true ... but you'll find the similarities swamp the differences ... to use statistical language the differences in group averages are not significant compared with the variation within the group populations examined.

 

PM VinnieK for the maths

[scoobe]

I am capable of reading properly, and just to name two (and there were more) that I personally found appalling

 

"If all the British people who live here now were black or

brown I think alot of you would feel like I do."

 

"Take a look at modern Britain and tell me that the country would be worse off without ethnic immigrants,

because I don’t believe it would be"

 

I find those views personally appalling , and I do think you are hiding behind pedantics with your "not racism, its culturalism". I was going to state that discriminating against any person due to the georgraphical place they were born is racism in my book, but I think the last few posters have made that point already.

 

All the english born people here are immigrants? Well knock me down with a feather, will the shocks and suprises never end! Who are these mythical english people who didn't know that by leaving the country of their birth, and entering a different one altogether, that they were immigrants?

 

Anti-english bile aside, the point is a nasty vile group wishes to make this island its "base", we need to show unity against them, and not let them tar this island with their facist brush.

[manxman8180]

I tell you what though, if the BNP literature included reference to the need for an all-island speed limit, we would have had an opposition group set up already, have held several meetings in a back street pub and be prepared to burn them at the stake.

 

Maybe we have our priorities wrong.......

[Rog]

Oh the good old nature vrs nurture debate rears its ugly head ... people are different ... very true ... but you'll find the similarities swamp the differences ...

 

In over 60 years that's not been my experience.

[Albert Tatlock]

These attitudes dehumanise and should be fought, and if someone tried to exclude the English from the Island or tried to stop employers or immigration officials making decisions based on individuals, insisting on ethnic/national/race criteria, I would want to fight it tooth and nail ... would you Albert? Doesn't sound like it.

But we do exclude the English from the island and do stop employers making decisions based on these criteria. It is not so simple as that, as what you are saying in effect sounds like the island's work permit system is 'racially discriminating' because it puts IOM workers first and discriminates against people from other nations so we should therefore open the flood gates. Countries still have their own right to determine their own immigration policy and have 'the right to be racist' in this UN context. We are a small island, with a small economy and we have the right to say who comes here and who doesn't. I would fight tooth and nail to retain the work permit system - and yes - it's inherent 'racial' discrimination.

 

IMHO you have to dig deeper to determine why the BNP are here. IMHO it is simply because our own culture is changing and a number of English people who now live here are members and have brought them over, part of a culture we have now imported but clearly do not want. If we do not have this debate and properly analyse why things are changing for the worse, then inevitably the BNP (and maybe others) will be back, though next time perhaps with many more members having come to live here. The BNP started in England, has a foothold in England and English people have voted for it - is it any wonder that they came here as half the population of the island is English - and that our culture has moved distinctly to the right.

 

You cannot simply discuss the BNP in this context - the reasons for the BNP visit is only part of a much wider picture relating to economic strategy, immigration and the culture both are currently fostering.