Newsbot Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 UK-style biometric ID cards will not be introduced in the Isle of Man without a proper debate, the government says. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/5238822.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovenotfear Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 UK-style biometric ID cards will not be introduced in the Isle of Man without a proper debate, the government says. Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/5238822.stm Dont worry, they are on the way! Welcome to Nazi germany 2006! http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/henry_...1/post_581.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Dont worry, they are on the way! Welcome to Nazi germany 2006! Or modern Belgium, dumbkopf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovenotfear Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Dont worry, they are on the way! Welcome to Nazi germany 2006! Or modern Belgium, dumbkopf. Maybe so, "staubiga Bruada" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuna Sandwich Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Yep, If Blur has been told by the European Central Government (Germany) that the UK has to have them then they will get them. If the UK get them we will get them. There is nothing Tynwald, you or I can do about it, except leave the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumble Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 This is hardly news - the story was on Manx Radio in March and the response from the Celtic League came out on 2nd August: Original story Celtic League Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Ayres Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Yep, If Blur has been told by the European Central Government (Germany) that the UK has to have them then they will get them. If the UK get them we will get them. There is nothing Tynwald, you or I can do about it, except leave the EU. Firstly, we are not in the EU. Secondly, the UK can not impose their laws on us without consent (as with speeding in UK, can be fined but no points on license), how we get around if in UK is another question waiting to be answered. Maybe we will need to carry our passports for travelling there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 This is hardly news - the story was on Manx Radio in March and the response from the Celtic League came out on 2nd August: Original story Celtic League Always worth a mention...especially to counter Mr Blairs attempts to bring them to the fore again today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Dont worry, they are on the way! Welcome to Nazi germany 2006! Or modern Belgium, dumbkopf. Or Switzerland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 This is hardly news - the story was on Manx Radio in March and the response from the Celtic League came out on 2nd August: Original story Celtic League Who cares about the Celtic League and Moaner Moffat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 This is hardly news - the story was on Manx Radio in March and the response from the Celtic League came out on 2nd August: Original story Celtic League Who cares about the Celtic League and Moaner Moffat? I do for one. He has done more for ordinary working people in the Island than all of our politicians put together. He also seems to command more than a modicum of respect in the Nationalist movement, at home and further afield and is a top notch bloke personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimeejulia Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 why are you all against id cards anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 why are you all against id cards anyway? Well for a start... The problems with "ID Cards" Not just a card. The card is the least of it... # The proposed identity management system has multiple layers # The NIR (National Identity Register) — individual checking and numbering of the population — marking many personal details as "registrable facts" to be disclosed and constantly updated — collection and checking of biometrics (e.g. fingerprints) — the card itself — a widespread scanner network and secure (one hopes) infrastructure connecting it to the central database — provision for use across the private and public sectors — data-sharing between organisations on an unprecedented scale. Massive accumulation of personal data # 50 categories of registrable fact are set out in the Bill, though they could be added to. Effectively an index to all other official and quasi-official records, through cross-references and an audit trail of all checks on the Register, the NIR would be the key to a total life history of every individual, to be retained even after death. Lifelong surveillance and the meta-database # Every registered individual will be under an obligation to notify any change in registrable facts. It is a clear aim of the system to require identity verification for many more civil transactions, the occasions to be stored in the audit trail. Information verified and indexed by numbers from the NIR would be easily cross-referenced in any database or set of databases. The "meta-database" of all the thousands of databases cross-referenced is much more powerful and much less secure than the NIR itself. Overseas ID cards are not comparable # Many western countries that have ID cards do not have a shared register. Mostly ID cards have been limited in use, with strong legal privacy protections. In Germany centralisation is forbidden for historical reasons, and when cards are replaced, the records are not linked. Belgium has made use of modern encryption methods and local storage to protect privacy and prevent data-sharing, an approach opposite to the Home Office's. The UK scheme is closest to those of some Middle Eastern countries and of the People's Republic of China—though the latter has largely given up on biometrics. The Government has not made a case. There is no evidence the system will produce the stated benefits. Less liberty does not imply greater security. # Terrorism # ID does not establish intention. Competent criminals and terrorists will be able to subvert the identity system. Random outrages by individuals can't be stopped. Ministers agree that ID cards will not prevent atrocities. A blank assertion that the department would find it helpful is not an argument that would be entertained for fundamental change in any other sphere of government but national security. Where is the evidence? Research suggests there is no link between the use of identity cards and the prevalence of terrorism, and in no instance has the presence of an identity card system been shown a significant deterrent to terrorist activity. Experts attest that ID unjustifiably presumed secure actually diminishes security. Illegal immigration and working # People will still enter Britain using foreign documents—genuine or forged—and ID cards offer no more deterrent to people smugglers than passports and visas. Employers already face substantial penalties for failing to obtain proof of entitlement to work, yet there are only a handful of prosecutions a year. Benefit fraud and abuse of public services # Identity is "only a tiny part of the problem in the benefit system." Figures for claims under false identity are estimated at £50 million (2.5%) of an (estimated) £2 billion per year in fraudulent claims. "Identity fraud" # Both Australia and the USA have far worse problems of identity theft than Britain, precisely because of general reliance on a single reference source. Costs usually cited for of identity-related crime here include much fraud not susceptible to an ID system. Nominally "secure", trusted, ID is more useful to the fraudster. The Home Office has not explained how it will stop registration by identity thieves in the personae of innocent others. Coherent collection of all sensitive personal data by government, and its easy transmission between departments, will create vast new opportunities for data-theft. Overcomplicated, unproven technology # Computer system # IT providers find that identity systems work best when limited in design. The Home Office scheme combines untested technologies on an unparalleled scale. Its many inchoate purposes create innumerable points for failure. The government record with computer projects is poor, and the ID system is likely to end up a broken mess. Biometrics # Not all biometrics will work for all people. Plenty are missing digits, or eyes, or have physical conditions that render one or more biometrics unstable or hard to read. All systems have error. Deployment on a vast scale, with variably trained operators and variably maintained and calibrated equipment, will produce vast numbers of mismatches, leading to potentially gross inconvenience to millions. Identity Cards will cost money that could be better spent # No ceiling # The Government has not ventured figures for the cost to the country as whole of the identity management scheme. That makes evaluation difficult. Civil Service IT experience suggests current projections are likely to be seriously underestimated. Home Office figures are for internal costs only, and have risen sharply—where they are not utterly obscure. Industry estimates suggest that public and private sector compliance costs could easily be double whatever is spent centrally. Opportunity costs # The Government has not even tried to show that national ID management will be more cost-effective than less spectacular alternative, targeted, solutions to the same problems (whether tried and tested or novel). We are to trust to luck that it is. Taxpayer pain # Even at current Home Office estimates, the additional tax burden of setting up the scheme will be of the order of £200 per person. The direct cost to individuals (of a combined passport and ID card package) is quoted as £93. The impact on other departmental and local authority budgets is unknown. The scope and impact of arbitrary penalties would make speed cameras trivial by comparison. Unchecked executive powers # Broad delegated power # The Home Office seeks wide discretion over the future shape of the scheme. There are more than 30 types of regulatory power for future Secretaries of State that would change the functions and content of the system ad lib. The scope, application and possible extension are extra-parliamentary decisions, even if nominally subject to approval. Presumption of accuracy # Data entered onto the National Identity Register (NIR) is arbitrarily presumed to be accurate, and the Home Secretary made a judge of accuracy of information provided to him. Meanwhile, the Home Office gets the power to enter information without informing the individual. But theres no duty to ensure that such data is accurate, or criterion of accuracy. Personal identity is implicitly made wholly subject to state control. Compulsion by stealth # Even during the so-called "voluntary phase", the Home Secretary can add any person to the Register without their consent, and categories of individuals might be compelled selectively to register using powers under any future legislation. Anyone newly applying for a passport or other "designated document", or renewing an existing one, will automatically have to be interviewed and submit all required details. This is less a phased introduction than a clandestine one. There is to be no choice. And the minimum of notice to the public about the change in the handling of their registrable information. Limited oversight # As proposed, the National Identity Scheme Commissioner would have very limited powers and is excluded from considering a number of key issues. He does not even report directly to Parliament. The reliance on administrative penalties means severe punishments may be inflicted without judicial process. The onus is on the individual to seek relief from the courts, at a civil standard of proof. Those who most require the protection of a fair trial are the least likely to be able to resort to legal action. Individuals managed by executive order # Without reference to the courts or any appeals process, the Home Secretary may cancel or require surrender of an identity card, without a right of appeal, at any time. Given that the object of the scheme is that an ID card will be eventually required to exercise any ordinary civil function, this amounts to granting the Home Secretary the power of civic life and death. The National Identity Register creates specific new threats to individuals # Discrimination—no guarantees # There have been vapid "assurances" made to some minority groups. That underlines the potential for threat. The system offers a ready-made police-state tool for a future government less trustworthy than the current one. A Home Secretary could create classifications of individuals to be registered as he sees fit, introducing onerous duties backed by severe penalties for fractions of the population. Religious or ethnic affiliation, for example, could be added to the Register by regulation—or be inferred by cross-referencing other information using a National Identity Register Number or associated data. "Papers, please" # ID cards in practice would provide a pretext for those in authority—public or private—to question individuals who stand out for reasons of personal appearance or demeanour. This is likely to exacerbate divisions in society. The Chairman of the Bar Council has asked, "is there not a great risk that those who feel at the margins of society—the somewhat disaffected—will be driven into the arms of extremists?" Third party abuse # The requirement that all those registered notify all changes in details risks creating the means of tracking and persecution through improper use of the database. A variety of persons have good reason to conceal their identity and whereabouts; for example: those fleeing domestic abuse; victims of "honour" crimes; witnesses in criminal cases; those at risk of kidnapping; undercover investigators; refugees from oppressive regimes overseas; those pursued by the press; those who may be terrorist targets. The seizure of ID cards (like benefit-books and passports now) will become a means for extortion by gangsters. Lost identity, becoming an un-person # By making ordinary life dependent on the reliability of a complex administrative system, the scheme makes myriad small errors potentially catastrophic. There's no hint from the government how it will deal with inevitably large numbers of mis-identifications and errors, or deliberate attacks on or corruption of what would become a critical piece of national infrastructure. A failure in any part of the system at a check might deny a person access to his or her rights or property or to public services, with no immediate solution or redress—"license to live" withdrawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimeejulia Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 ok long reply ... The card fits in your wallet like your cash card, saves you from carrying you passport around. Identity management system - this works well if its well organised by the gov. I'm assuming you still have details registered (e.g. birth certificate, national insurance number etc.) even if you have no id card. Data sharing limited to gov departments. Massive accumulation of personal data - its a matter of continual maintenance... Total life history... lol ....birth ....illness ....conviction/s ....employment ....marital status ....death Lifelong surveillance and the meta-database - lol you still register changes - change of address, change of marital status Overseas ID cards are not comparable - ok i give you that but still id cards are recognised everywhere you go, its an official document Less liberty - where does it limit your liberty? Terrorism has nothing to do with id cards, criminals are still criminals even if they have their name tattooed on their foreheads Illegal emigration and use of fake documents again has nothing to do with id cards, people will still do that no matter how strict and controlled any counrty is. Benefit frauds again see the above point - only difference would be that should a case need proving files and forms may be investigated more easily because of the common id card number Identity frauds - will still happen with or without id card overcomplicated software - its like having a huge access file back that up by servers work that out with an easy to use interface and you d have what most other gov have... an up and running registry system Biometrics - well i give you this one should be dna collection most countries dont have this too complicated biometric collection or it limits itself to blood type Taxpayers pain - yes you are right it takes a building offices and employees Discrimination - ethnic and religious affilation would have nothing to do with it Papers pls - they still ask me for id if i buy alcohol at shop rite and i m 21 The seizure of ID cards (like benefit-books and passports now) will become a means for extortion by gangsters. when you lose ur id card you report it to the police and you go get another one thats it - its not tied to any money Lost of identity hehe now this is funny even if the gov makes plenty of mistakes it's not mathemically possible to disappear like that - you'd still some official document birth certificate, passport, national insurance, any licence, scjool certificates etc etc No matter how invisible you think you are to the gov well you are not with or without id card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimeejulia Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 having said all that well i understand your point of view the concept and the thought of being a number is not pleasant i'm rather neutral on the id card issue - i've had mine since always Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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