ans Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 But if they don't like the security official's decision ... then they should choose not to fly. They can't have a veto on a security decision. Air marshals etc mean security decisions are not always clear to a passenger. If they don't like it, don't fly. It's the fact that the people took security decisions into their own hands that disturbs me. Quoted for truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 [Why not go all the way back to the Sudan and so on if you think it's relevant? I for one think that anything beyond living memory or maybe just short of it probably isn't relevant. So for me WW2 is about it and I have personal experience from Crete that demonstrated it to me and EVERYONE knows the running sore that is Israel. So how far back you go in history for relevance to modern issues is a subjective and personal choice. But, of course, you already know that. Equally you may not think you are one of the good guys but I know I am. Incidentally I think racial profiling is right in that it is a place to start as you have to start somewhere i.e. if Muslims complain at being targeted then tough as I don't see British folks of Chinese descent becoming suicide bombers. It shouldn't be the be-all and end-all though and from what I know it isn't as racial profiling has been around since the seventies. In it's infancy it posed that difficult question "Who is the Racial Code 6 in the Pile of Sticks?". Go figure. Certainly i think it is relevant, our history of colonial conquest adds to what other people think of us hence the reason you raised the invasion of Kuwait, a nasty move by Iraq but nothing compared to our recent history, judge not lest ye be judged But back to the post, the two guys were accepted by the profiling experts to fly, why then were they removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermo Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Incidentally I think racial profiling is right in that it is a place to start as you have to start somewhere i.e. if Muslims complain at being targeted then tough as I don't see British folks of Chinese descent becoming suicide bombers. What about the Japanese? I mean they've got form.... Is any wonder the Muslims get the hump "22:00 Today Channel 4 Sleeper Cell Hard-hitting drama series. A federal agent assumes the guise of a Muslim ex-convict in order to infiltrate a terrorist sleeper cell planning an attack on Los Angeles. An Islamic extremist recruits him to the cause, unaware of his hidden agenda" Certainly i think it is relevant, our history of colonial conquest adds to what other people think of us hence the reason you raised the invasion of Kuwait, a nasty move by Iraq but nothing compared to our recent history, judge not lest ye be judged But back to the post, the two guys were accepted by the profiling experts to fly, why then were they removed? Ahh, The invasion of Kuwait... I remember it well... We went there to kick Saddam out and install Democracy & the like..... & did the Kuwaities get their Democracy.... did they f*&k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Ahh, The invasion of Kuwait... I remember it well... We went there to kick Saddam out and install Democracy & the like..... & did the Kuwaities get their Democracy.... did they f*&k! Possibly because MIddle East Muslim countries dont see democracy as a good thing. i.e they dont want it. Regarding the guys on the plane I wouldn't belive everything you read in the newspapers, especially the British ones. Maybe there was more to this incident than meets the eye? I cant see any reason profiling shouldnt be an integrated component of airport security procedures but clearly we shouldnt rely on profiling alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I would agree but we are seeing panic paranoia in areas now, we need to get a grip before more damage to relations is caused. Problem is that Islam is spread through so many different ethnic groups, from stereotypical middle easteners to Chinese and Indoneseans, lets be clear, these terrorists are no fools and do seem to keep one step ahead and if we concentrate our efforts on one ethnic type, it will leave avenues elsewhere. Examples are the attack on El Al i think in Tokyo airport, PLO sponsored, but subbed out to Japanese contractors. Sept 1985 three Israelis murdered on a boat in Larnaca by the PLO, one of which was an ethnic english lad from Newcastle. Books and covers guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Yes we couldnt rely on profiling alone especially if it was based exclusively on racial type! After all plenty of white folk have converted to Islam. To tell the truth I am not personally convinced the alleged conspiracy to assemble bombs on board planes ever did amount to much. Probably Im wrong but I just feel there is something decidedly unconvincing about the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Possibly because MIddle East Muslim countries dont see democracy as a good thing. i.e they dont want it. The people in power (and extremists) don't want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermo Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Ahh, The invasion of Kuwait... I remember it well... We went there to kick Saddam out and install Democracy & the like..... & did the Kuwaities get their Democracy.... did they f*&k! Possibly because MIddle East Muslim countries dont see democracy as a good thing. i.e they dont want it. What?? The Kuwaities didn't get their democracy because it wasn't offered them & those who protested were locked up (or disappeared). It was back to the cosy little pre-invasion arrangement between the UK/US & the ruling Monarch. Kuwait was & still is a fiefdom & that's nothing to do with Islam, but has alot to do with greedy Westerners. Anyway back to thread. "To tell the truth I am not personally convinced the alleged conspiracy to assemble bombs on board planes ever did amount to much. Probably Im wrong but I just feel there is something decidedly unconvincing about the whole thing." - agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 The climate of fear method of forcing foreign policy is wearing thin now with the population, the recent guardian survey shows big changes in perceptions of belief in what our leaders tell us. I like many others feel that the majority of the grief and truoble we have now is the sole fault of irresponsible foreign policy and the USA's need to have a credible supporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I tried it on EuroManx to Liverpool last week. Two bloody comeovers looked a bit dodgy to me, what with their English football shirts and funny accents, and they were leaving the Isle of Man not via the approved route (a boat in the morning). Definitely terrorists in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 leaving the Isle of Man not via the approved route (a boat in the morning). OOOOH! nice, wish i had said that, i probably will though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Yes we couldnt rely on profiling alone especially if it was based exclusively on racial type!After all plenty of white folk have converted to Islam. As has been mentioned by others Chinese too ... Bin Laden is lionized and Wahibism is alive and well amoungst some radical Uigurs and even amoungst the Hui ... who are ethnic Chinese ... so PK I wouldn't be too surprised if a Chinese muslim set of a bomb ... they've done it in Beijing (CLICKY) why not else where? To tell the truth I am not personally convinced the alleged conspiracy to assemble bombs on board planes ever did amount to much. Probably Im wrong but I just feel there is something decidedly unconvincing about the whole thing. You slightly surprise me saying that Lonewolf ... I'll wait to see with the court case, but the finding of explosives and what are described as Martyrdom videos made me think this was probably reliable intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollag Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 before im savaged let me say that i realise J Le Carre is a fiction author but also that he was always quite the establishment person that supported in general the aims of the west. When i read absolute friends i was surprised by his about face, whereas he cannot be described as expert anymore, i think he has a certain insight to the methods and styles of Intelligence matters via contributors. If you havnt yet, do try the book, its still a good read. I find his scenarios far more believable than those proported about by our politicians, i have no faith at all in our leaders anymore, everyday now they seem more like men in a hole desperatly trying to dig their way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 You slightly surprise me saying that Lonewolf ... I'll wait to see with the court case, but the finding of explosives and what are described as Martyrdom videos made me think this was probably reliable intelligence. Im probably wrong but Im just not convinced about this one. We might find out more when it gets to court but for the moment I'm "decidedly undecided" as to whether I believe these guys actually posed a serious threat or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Other than possibly Iraq (I'm not sure what the status is there) Kuwait is probably the most democratic of the Gulf countries. They do have a functional parliament (although the Emir does have the last say on everything), women are allowed to vote (I think) and can be MPs. That said, it's no surprise that the US isn't arsed about democracy taking root in countries whose existing governments support it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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