Anti Semitism Uk

[Rog]

My understanding of zionism is that it is the belief that it was right to redraw the map in the Middle East so that Jewish peoples (whether by race or religion) should have their own homeland.

 

Close, but no cigar.

 

It was the League of Nations that decided that it was right to create a Jewish state in a part of the dismantled Ottoman Empire and it was the then credible United Nations that finally recognised Israel as a free and sovereign state. It is significant that the map of the Middle East was not redrawn, it was corrected.

 

Zionism was founded to garner support for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, as the result of a nation in Diaspora had been a total disaster and would go on to be an even greater one.

[Albert Tatlock]

Zionism maintains and encourages anti-Semitism. For a people, so badly treated by the Nazis, to then go on themselves to do this to others in Palestine, is despicable.

 

Go back to the 1967 UN derived borders and create a Palestinian state and open up Jerusalem ...and you break the cycle.

 

Calls for peace are not anti-semetic they are simply people being human, which is why Israel has lost the hearts and minds of millions.

[Rog]

Zionism maintains and encourages anti-Semitism. For a people, so badly treated by the Nazis, to then go on themselves to do this to others in Palestine, is despicable.

 

Go back to the 1967 UN derived borders and create a Palestinian state and open up Jerusalem ...and you break the cycle.

 

Calls for peace are not anti-semetic they are simply people being human, which is why Israel has lost the hearts and minds of millions.

 

 

Rubbish.

 

ill informed, biased, bigoted rubbish.

[John Wright]

I'm with you Albert

[When Skies Are Grey]

ill informed, biased, bigoted rubbish.

 

Well you are the expert on that I suppose......

[hboy]

Rubbish.

 

ill informed, biased, bigoted rubbish.

 

That describes just about every post you've made on these forums. I bet you ripped up your Daily Mail in a fit of anger.

 

It seems to me that people should stop posting anything at all that is critical of the way Israel conducts itself, as it is impossible to avoid cries of anti semitism. As Albert says calls for peace are not anti-semetic they are simply people being human.

 

The current state of affairs in the Middle East are little short of shameful, and the daily death and carnage will not stop. I see no difference between plain terrorism and state sponsored terrorism and most right minded people clearly think the same.

 

We all know how this will end to, we are just counting the days to an Israeli / Iranian nuclear stand off that will certainly contain the potential to re-draw borders. Probably for another thousand years.

[Chinahand]

Zionism maintains and encourages anti-Semitism. For a people, so badly treated by the Nazis, to then go on themselves to do this to others in Palestine, is despicable

 

I really don't know what to make of this thread. Disturbing is the best way to put it.

 

Various people have posted that they don't think anti-semitism exists and the statistics showing increasing violence against perfectly innocent and ordinary jews, their property, their places of worship and their graves is a fabrication deliberately created to counter anti-jewish and anti-israeli propoganda.

 

Other posters seem to be saying that Israeli policy creates anti-semitism and rather than condeming this linking of violence against ordinary people to the politics of a country they concentrate on the politics of the country of Israel and seem to use it to "explain", should that be "justify", this violence.

 

I think the people who are posting this type of odium are people who would usually claim solidarity with people who are having political violence used against them. But for some reason they have a blind spot over Jews because of the policies of Israel and hence de-emphasise and ignore a very serious and growing political problem.

 

Respecting and demanding Human Rights isn't a one way street. It means having to demand fair treatment and condemm HR violations who ever is the victim, whether Saddam Hussein, a Guantanemo Bay Terrorist, or an elderly Orthodox jew visiting the grave of his wife and finding it daubed with swastikers.

 

I find it repugnant that people are evading the issue and trying to debate the pros and cons of Zionism etc. I have, and do, condemn Israeli oppression in the Occupied Territories, but these policies have no bearing on whether or not we should condemn anti semitism and it is profoundly wrong to use these policies to ignore abuses against Jews.

 

And Albert, I realize you are in a hyperbolic mood at the moment, but to claim the policies of the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories are anything even remotely like the policies of the Nazis (as you directly do in the quote above) is so nieve and wrong it deeply concerns me. Use apartheid South Africa if you like, I think that analogy has some merit, but please think about what you have said for a minute. Are you genuinely comparing the policies of the Israelis to those of the Nazis: if you are you have little idea of history and you have such a distorted idea of the facts I really think you should consider what influences have made you believe such things.

[Albert Tatlock]

And Albert, I realize you are in a hyperbolic mood at the moment, but to claim the policies of the Israeli's in the Occupied Territories are anything even remotely like the policies of the Nazis (as you directly do in the quote above) is so nieve and wrong it deeply concerns me. Use apartheid South Africa if you like, I think that analogy has some merit, but please think about what you have said for a minute. Are you genuinely comparing the policies of the Israelis to those of the Nazis: if you are you have little idea of history and you have such a distorted idea of the facts I really think you should consider what influences have made you believe such things.

Since 1967 the Israelis have treated the Palestinians inhumanly and degenerated their lives with a free rein armed by the US.

 

As I have mentioned previously in this thread, how many UN Security Council resolutions have been ignored, never mind the Geneva convention? Israel is using the 'war on terror' as the latest excuse to label the Palestinians as terrorists when they are a group of refugees without the means to fight back - and yet when they do they are all collectively punished (which happens practically every day). The facts are that Palestinians are imprisoned in their homes and towns, most of the infrastructure has been bombed to destruction and most of them are unemployed because the economy has been wiped out. Usually their leaders end up getting kidnapped - and thousands of Palestinians are held prisoner for years.

 

Treated inhumanly? Collectively punished? Economy Wiped out? Imprisoned in their own homes and towns? Held without trial?

 

...that's the parallel.

[Chinahand]

Treated inhumanly? Collectively punished? Economy Wiped out? Imprisoned in their own homes and towns? Held without trial?

 

...that's the parallel.

 

Sorry, but in what way is this a parallel to the policies of the Nazis? Are you really wanting to justify your statements. Incredible.

 

Since the 1990s Israel has entered into a political dialogue with the Palestinians. It has allowed the PLO etc to return to the occupied territories and assume government. There have been elections which are certified as free and fair by the UN. In the last years of the Clinton government they offered a comprehensive settlement which the PLO rejected in order to return to violence. Years later Yasser Arafat admitted this had been a fundamental mistake but he then tried to have it both ways, accepting the old settlement, but with continuing violence. In response to this Israel then unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and has allowed a government which actively engages in suicide bombings against Israeli civilians to assume government.

 

The current Israeli government was elected under a manefesto commited to unilateral withdrawl from the vast majority of the West Bank. But deliberate and premeditated violence against Israel has destroyed that possibility in the medium term.

 

Rog is not far wrong when he says Israel sincerely wishes for a peace partner, but is unable to find one.

 

I'm sure you'll post about Jerusalem and the Peace Wall unilaterally taking Palestinian territory ... but sorry this is a quid pro pro and real politics ... its politics and a settlement means neither side will get everything they want.

 

I am not claiming everything is rosy with Israeli policies, they are repressive and put far too much emphasis on military solutions. But they are and have been attempting to get a political settlement to these terrible problems and to try to put moral equivelence to the actions of a modern disciplined military force to Nazis or suicide bombers and indsicriminate attacks against civillians is just plain wrong.

 

I very specifically ask you again Albert to consider what you are saying ... are you still claiming there is an equivelence between Israeli and Nazi actions?

[Albert Tatlock]

Treated inhumanly? Collectively punished? Economy Wiped out? Imprisoned in their own homes and towns? Held without trial?

 

...that's the parallel.

 

Sorry, but in what way is this a parallel to the policies of the Nazis? Are you really wanting to justify your statements. Incredible.

 

Since the 1990s Israel has entered into a political dialogue with the Palestinians. It has allowed the PLO etc to return to the occupied territories and assume government. There have been elections which are certified as free and fair by the UN. In the last years of the Clinton government they offered a comprehensive settlement which the PLO rejected in order to return to violence. Years later Yasser Arafat admitted this had been a fundamental mistake but he then tried to have it both ways, accepting the old settlement, but with continuing violence. In response to this Israel then unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and has allowed a government which actively engages in suicide bombings against Israeli civilians to assume government.

 

The current Israeli government was elected under a manefesto commited to unilateral withdrawl from the vast majority of the West Bank. But deliberate and premeditated violence against Israel has destroyed that possibility in the medium term.

 

Rog is not far wrong when he says Israel sincerely wishes for a peace partner, but is unable to find one.

 

I'm sure you'll post about Jerusalem and the Peace Wall unilaterally taking Palestinian territory ... but sorry this is a quid pro pro and real politics ... its politics and a settlement means neither side will get everything they want.

 

I am not claiming everything is rosy with Israeli policies, they are repressive and put far too much emphasis on military solutions. But they are and have been attempting to get a political settlement to these terrible problems and to try to put moral equivelence to the actions of a modern disciplined military force to Nazis or suicide bombers and indsicriminate attacks against civillians is just plain wrong.

 

I very specifically ask you again Albert to consider what you are saying ... are you still claiming there is an equivelence between Israeli and Nazi actions?

Hold on one minute there Chinahand!

 

When anyone compares anything or anyone to the Nazi's they are usually villified by the usual emotive reactions (you are now showing if you don't mind me saying so), and thought to be assuming the full horror of gas chambers etc. The common factor here is people treating other people badly and my point is that the Israelis seem to be forgetting this part of their own history - and that is why I make the parallel with the people who treated them badly.

 

If there is one thing Israel knows about it is the Nazis. They understand how it was allowed to start and the full horror and consequences of it's outcome. The facts of the matter are that Israel are treating the Palestinians in just the same way they themselves were treated by the Nazis in the pre-war years - and that is a parallel. The Palestinians are tagged, their livlihoods and property taken away, they are collectively punished, thousands of them are kidnapped or taken prisoner and they seem to have no rights under UN or international law (Geneva convention) ETC.

 

Whilst many people in the UK were concerned with Tony Blair's refusal to push for a ceasefire in Lebanon, the same disproportionate use of force was being applied to Palestine (especially Gaza) - though most of it went unreported. Gaza is the most populated place on the planet with usually three generations of the same refugee family living in squalor and Gaza gets bombed everyday - by Israeli men and women.

 

There is a solution here and two capable peace partners - if, IMHO, the US and UK governments start to respect the wishes of their own people. Not so many years ago Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan were 'miles away' and most people (if they are honest) couldn't have given a flying fart as to what was happening there. However, IMHO, directly as a result of the failure to implement what the UN set out to do in 1967, and set up a Palestinian state the whole region is in chaos. I'm sure you would be the first to agree that the whole middle east region is inextricably linked to the Palestinian question, and if Bush and Blair had put a fraction of the effort into helping resolve this - instead of perpetuating and worsening the situation - the whole region would have started to calm down. This is costing British lives, including 12 Airmen and 7 soldiers being shipped back in boxes to Brize Norton today, and for what?

 

There will always be troublemakers like Yasser Arafat etc. as well as hawks in Israel and hawks in the US and neo conservatives such as Bush and Blair - but with the right negotiators a peace could eventually (has to be) be realised. More people than ever in the US and UK have a better understanding of the middle east and clearly want a solution - not George Orwells and now Dubyas perpetual war.

 

This would require a massive realignment of the UN to even start (probably not until after Bush and Blair are out) - but more importantly it will require each side respecting the human beings on the other side of the table.

[Chinahand]

When anyone compares anything or anyone to the Nazi's they are usually villified by the usual emotive reactions (you are now showing if you don't mind me saying so), and thought to be assuming the full horror of gas chambers etc.

 

I have not vilified you, and I question where I have been emotive in my replies, I have asked you to justify your remarks and I have rationally replied to you to explain why I still feel you are absolutely incorrect in your statements.

 

There have been, and still are, many repressive regimes in the world. Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians has repressive elements, but it also has a desire for engagement and seeking a mutually acceptable settlement. But YOU have chosen to compare Israel’s actions with the Nazis. If you'd used South Africa, or Suharto's Indonesia I'd agree with you. If you'd compared it with Russia's actions in Chetchenya I'd say you were probably over doing it, but no you are still insisting on using the Nazis as your analogy.

 

You are simply wrong.

 

Nazis in the pre-war years - and that is a parallel. The Palestinians are tagged, their livlihoods and property taken away, they are collectively punished, thousands of them are kidnapped or taken prisoner and they seem to have no rights under UN or international law (Geneva convention) ETC.

 

Albert, please think about this.

 

Take any period of the Nazi era and compare it with Israel’s actions and you will find fundamental differences in policy and philosophy. You seem to be comparing a Palestinian ID to forcing people to wear a star of David.

 

You seem to be comparing security sweeps to Crystal Nacht.

 

You talk about collective punishment … I want to understand what you mean by this … waging a war has consequences, civilians are affected, if that is what you mean by collective punishment then we can agree and tall it “disproportionate use of force”, but when you talk about Nazi collective punishment you are talking about shooting somebody because of what their brother did, saying you are going to shoot 5 civilians for every SS soldier killed … policies which existed from the invasion of Czechoslovakia onwards.

 

You are describing a court mediated, Red Cross monitored, process as Kidnapping. Have you any idea of the power and liberalism of the Israeli Supreme Court … they’ve demanded the security wall is rerouted, overruled government security policies etc etc. The prisoners have rights and those rights are enforced by the courts.

 

Please understand prisoners in Israeli jails have just been actively involved in formulating political agreements between Hamas and the PLO and the formation of the National Unity government.

 

 

 

The thing that most amazes me about this is that you are still silent on the evils of anti-Semitism, which is what this topic is meant to be about.

 

You’d rather justify why you think the Israel is like the Nazis than condemn racism … incredible.

[Albert Tatlock]

The thing that most amazes me about this is that you are still silent on the evils of anti-Semitism, which is what this topic is meant to be about.

 

You’d rather justify why you think the Israel is like the Nazis than condemn racism … incredible.

Firstly, I was responding to your last post in which you asked:

but in what way is this a parallel to the policies of the Nazis? Are you really wanting to justify your statements. Incredible.

and

I very specifically ask you again Albert to consider what you are saying ... are you still claiming there is an equivelence between Israeli and Nazi actions?

My post answered those questions.

 

I do condemn anti-semitism - without hesitation. However, as I said earlier, I believe that Zionism perpetuates anti-semitism. You distracted from the debate by asking the above questions and focusing on the Nazis.

 

I do not think of the people of Israel as Jews, neither do I think of the Palestinians as Muslims - I think of them both as people. I am agnostic so what they believe is of no interest to me, other than to try and understand it and push for a negotiated solution.

 

I spend a lot if time in the UK, and I have not personally witnessed any increase in anti-semitism. But I refuse to hide or limit my comments as a human being on this subject, simply because of the phrase 'anti-semitism' - a phrase which IMHO is abused every time Israeli policies get criticised as some sort of 'guilt trip' on the west. It reminds me of a kid stopping a game of football and taking his ball home.

[P.K.]

I've just finished a 100+ mile backpack and for once I'm sorry I missed some of the bollox on here.

 

Let's get one thing straight right away. The current rise of the BNP and UKIP is all about feeding the basic insecurities of those who are not having such a good life as their Asian or Jewish neighbours. Of course, the hours of hard work these minorities put in to achieve this are irrelevant. The not-so-bright Nationalistic UK Anglo-Saxon underclass of lead-swinging adults and their umemployable kids who also happen to be teenage parents like to blame any handy minority for their own poor showing. After all, it's not their fault is it? It's the fault of all the extra help (via benefits) that these minorities get not. It's actually down to the way these minorities still believe in the extended family and how the entire family work as a team with mutual pride and support for the common good - but that's probably another thread in it's own right.

 

So yes with the rise of UKIP and the BNP comes a rise of UK racism in general. Not exactly rocket science...

[Albert Tatlock]

The current rise of the BNP and UKIP

...though do not overestimate the performance of these parties. There is a major difference in our perception and the level of media coverage they seem to get v the actual votes results both parties usually get. Both parties are usually only in the hundreds of votes in elections, and only in very exceptional cases (such as UKIP in Bromley into a few thousand).

[Lonan3]

I've just finished a 100+ mile backpack and for once I'm sorry I missed some of the bollox on here.

 

Let's get one thing straight right away. The current rise of the BNP and UKIP is all about feeding the basic insecurities of those who are not having such a good life as their Asian or Jewish neighbours. Of course, the hours of hard work these minorities put in to achieve this are irrelevant. The not-so-bright Nationalistic UK Anglo-Saxon underclass of lead-swinging adults and their umemployable kids who also happen to be teenage parents like to blame any handy minority for their own poor showing. After all, it's not their fault is it? It's the fault of all the extra help (via benefits) that these minorities get not. It's actually down to the way these minorities still believe in the extended family and how the entire family work as a team with mutual pride and support for the common good - but that's probably another thread in it's own right.

 

So yes with the rise of UKIP and the BNP comes a rise of UK racism in general. Not exactly rocket science...

 

I've actually found one of your posts that I agree with!

(I think I may have to go and lie down in a darkened room... take a couple of aspirins, maybe... put a cold towel across my forehead...)