Manx Legal System. Stinks Again

[Gladys]

But, prison should be where people are sent who are a real danger to the fabric of society, either because of their violence or continual disregard for the law of the land.

 

Such as this lad who nearly killed someone for seemingly nowt? I'd prefer this twat to be locked up than roaming the streets looking for another victim.

 

I was attacked, unprovoked, by some arsehole a couple of years back. I was too pissed to defend myself but fortunate enough to have someone there to save me otherwise who knows what would've happened?

 

These people are scum and dont deserve to live with the rest of society.

In which case, off to chokey they should go! I wasn't arguing for or against a prison sentence for this case, but I was agreeing with Thieawin that prison sentences are handed out for the wrong crimes and, apart from wishy washy liberalism, the effect of that is to make prison a tolerable consequence of a crime.

 

IMO prison does not rehabilitate, act as a deterrant, or punish (that is a very subjective notion), it possibly gives society retribution (but that is short lived, except in high profile cases). But what it really does, and should do, is keep the scum, as you rightly refer to them, off the streets and away from the rest of society. That is all we should expect from a custodial sentence.

 

Imprison the right offenders who really are a danger to society and you have a much better position from which to argue against the civil libertarians that these people have no regard for society so why should society have much regard for them beyond the simple requirements. I.e. no facilities such as gyms, telephones, films etc.

[localyokel]

I wasn't arguing for or against a prison sentence for this case, but I was agreeing with Thieawin that prison sentences are handed out for the wrong crimes and, apart from wishy washy liberalism, the effect of that is to make prison a tolerable consequence of a crime.

 

Seems to me this guy got handed his get out of jail free card the first time round, and has now got another. Makes you wonder what rehabilitation is possible, if you fail to use your first lucky break as a learning experience.

[Theskeat]

http://www.rte.ie/news/1999/1004/murder.html

[ramsea]

*note* never play monopoly against Clucas, especially for real money as either he's very lucky, or he swindles the community chest and chance cards.

[John Wright]

The topic alleges the sytem stinks, I was trying to explain the system.

 

Problem is that the posts then go back and persoanlise it.

 

Hard cases always make bad law and we do not know the facts.

 

The sheer fact that we do not understand, because we do have all the facts or agree with the sentence is not a justification for sayingb the system is wrong

[lisner]

The next thing you'll be coming out with the hackneyed "you weren't in court, you don't have the facts the judge had, so you can't comment".

 

To say 'you do not understand' is patronising.

 

Take a look at the facts of this case and history.

 

One of the facts is that an ex-Chief Minister and part of the upper echelons of the farming and land owning community and fellow freemason as is the defs. father gave a reference, and to boot he has also been knighted. It doesn't get much better than that does it. Does it.

 

And a supposedly religious and upright ex-Chief Constable chucked in a good word too.

 

There aren't many people can call that sort of clout in, is there? Especially people who go fighting and doing other naughty things.

 

Facts. They're there a plenty and that's without starting on what the bloke did.

 

On this Island it is who you know and suck up to that counts and if you can find someone with a title - well the sycophantic ego searching establishment of this Island start to sway and swoon. In this case with the emphasis on sway. There's a f***en fact for you our kid.

[Mr. Sausages]

The "lower crime rate" is because they don't record things as crimes these days if they can get away with not doing so. It's statistical manipulation, and political spin.

[Dave the Cardboard Box]

Theawin is correct in nearly every respect in his long post, (especially in relation to the benefits or not of prison.(

 

Except for one thing. The crime rate here.

 

Proper analysis a few years ago showed that indeed we have lower rates of crime than big cities, and urban connurbations, like Leeds, Manchester, Bradford. Liverpool, London etc.

 

But we have exactly comparable rates of crime per population with rural counties like Herefordshire, Devon and Cornwall, Fife, Hertfordshire etc. We even have comparable rates of crime to the 'respectable' suburbs of Liverpool.

 

However, along with Guernsey and Jersey, we have higher rates of violent crime than rural counties.

 

This is probably due to tourist seasonality and the drink culture.

 

And as to our murder rate, for a population of 70,000 we have averaged one a year for many years now. Not many towns of that size in the UK keep up that level of homicide.

 

If only Mr. Heron had never met Mr. Brearley.

[lisner]

A good post which also the acknowledge Thieawin's previous considered long post.

 

Sorry to stray off the discussion a little (as is the way of these forum things) but I noticed in the very same Isle of Man Examiner on page 12 the following item:

 

 

Jailed.

[John Wright]

I did my Masters Degree thesis on Crime rates in IOM and the effect of the birch.

 

I've updated the figures every year since 1978

 

I agree drink is a strong factor

 

Our crime rate is lower than most rural areas

 

I was not being patronising, I have been there and seen many files in full.

 

The titled Gentleman gave references in a foreign court as far as I rememeber, not this court, this time.

[thebees]

*note to self, if ever in court claim to have found God and all will be fine.

[Mr. Sausages]

Better still, claim to be God.

[Cake]

But does anyone know Mr Montgomerie is in the Masons?

 

I saw Henry Callow deal with someone who had pulled the "I am on the square stuff", I think he got a stiffer sentence for his temerity

 

Criticising judges is all well and good if we have all the facts. We don't.

 

Acting Deemster would have all the statements, from the aggreived, the accused and independent witnesses, he would have social enquiry and probation reports, psychiatric reports, testimonials.

 

He has a sentencing tarrif laid down with discounts for guilty plea, co operation etc.

 

It was serious, it warranted a stiff prison sentence, that is what the Defendant got.

 

Then he looks at what he has done since, has he genuine remorse and has he "repented", and he suspends it.

 

If the Defendant is a shit who dose not deserve and will shortly break the law again, then he will go to prison when he breaks the law, not only for the next offence, but this offence.

 

We really need a proper debate about penal policy.

 

The IOM sends more people per head of population to prison for less serious offences than anywhere in or adjacent to Europe except Turkey. Not something to be proud of.

 

Our crime rate is a third of that in England and Wales, less crime in absolute terms, less serious crime, but more people sent to prison. Why?

 

If we had a real penal policy, didn't send drink drivers and social inadequates and the homeless to prison, we would have perhaps 20 to 30 maximum prisoners, real bad people who you can only deal with through prison because of public safety, or whose offence is such that policy demands a prison sentence.

 

If we did that we would not need a new prison at Jurby. We could knock through the existing cells at Victoria Road and make them en suite in the existing prison. There wouldn't be the need for playing fields because there would not be enough for one side let alone two to play each other. It isn't to do with inadequate buildings or regimes, it is about putting too many people in there.

 

We could free up a fortune and direct it at reahabilitation of drugs and alcohol addicts. Drink Drivers could be made to give up their weekends to go into a weekend hostel, every weekend, for educational work on the evils of drink driving etc.

 

What is really shocking is that we are bulding a prison for 140, the present prison was built for about 50 and can hold 80 at a push, do the maths, who else they intending locking up.

 

The only penal policy we have at present is a stipendiary magistrate who seems detrmined to imprison whom he can and then being racist, or at least very undiplomatic, about the police and penal institutions of friendly European countries.

 

I wonder if anyone has told the Polish Embassy of his anti Polish Criminal Justice system jibes. I'm really surprised he has not started a serious diplomatic incident

 

Finally, and I'm aware this is a long post, if A D Montgomerie got oit wrong the attorney General, whose office has the files and all the information can appeal. Leave it to them.

 

If the Defendant is a shit who dose not deserve and will shortly break the law again, then he will go to prison when he breaks the law, not only for the next offence, but this offence.

When he does break the law again, lets hope it's not you or me he kicks the living day light out of.

[Sparky]

But does anyone know Mr Montgomerie is in the Masons?

 

I saw Henry Callow deal with someone who had pulled the "I am on the square stuff", I think he got a stiffer sentence for his temerity

 

Criticising judges is all well and good if we have all the facts. We don't.

 

Acting Deemster would have all the statements, from the aggreived, the accused and independent witnesses, he would have social enquiry and probation reports, psychiatric reports, testimonials.

 

He has a sentencing tarrif laid down with discounts for guilty plea, co operation etc.

 

It was serious, it warranted a stiff prison sentence, that is what the Defendant got.

 

Then he looks at what he has done since, has he genuine remorse and has he "repented", and he suspends it.

 

If the Defendant is a shit who dose not deserve and will shortly break the law again, then he will go to prison when he breaks the law, not only for the next offence, but this offence.

 

We really need a proper debate about penal policy.

 

The IOM sends more people per head of population to prison for less serious offences than anywhere in or adjacent to Europe except Turkey. Not something to be proud of.

 

Our crime rate is a third of that in England and Wales, less crime in absolute terms, less serious crime, but more people sent to prison. Why?

 

If we had a real penal policy, didn't send drink drivers and social inadequates and the homeless to prison, we would have perhaps 20 to 30 maximum prisoners, real bad people who you can only deal with through prison because of public safety, or whose offence is such that policy demands a prison sentence.

 

If we did that we would not need a new prison at Jurby. We could knock through the existing cells at Victoria Road and make them en suite in the existing prison. There wouldn't be the need for playing fields because there would not be enough for one side let alone two to play each other. It isn't to do with inadequate buildings or regimes, it is about putting too many people in there.

 

We could free up a fortune and direct it at reahabilitation of drugs and alcohol addicts. Drink Drivers could be made to give up their weekends to go into a weekend hostel, every weekend, for educational work on the evils of drink driving etc.

 

What is really shocking is that we are bulding a prison for 140, the present prison was built for about 50 and can hold 80 at a push, do the maths, who else they intending locking up.

 

The only penal policy we have at present is a stipendiary magistrate who seems detrmined to imprison whom he can and then being racist, or at least very undiplomatic, about the police and penal institutions of friendly European countries.

 

I wonder if anyone has told the Polish Embassy of his anti Polish Criminal Justice system jibes. I'm really surprised he has not started a serious diplomatic incident

 

Finally, and I'm aware this is a long post, if A D Montgomerie got oit wrong the attorney General, whose office has the files and all the information can appeal. Leave it to them.

 

But the problem with this is that he has to re-offend to be imprisoned, so some other poor sod may have the misfortune of being severly beaten or killed. I know a driving offence would trigger the sentence, but look at the guys history!

 

And what is all this social enquiry nonsense every scum bag and his offspring seem to be getting off because he didn't have an action man when he was 7 and it has affected his behaviour since. Seems to me that the worse you are the better you get treated.

 

Rant Over :-)

[Theskeat]

Lets hope he never chokes some poor git again but if he does, will the Courts take action against the likes Of Walker and his Freemason friends, and will they have the guts to talk to the victims family.