Time Team Find!

[VinnieK]

To suggest that a Manx word can't be older than a Latin word is just as annoying.

 

Or reasonable when it's a name for something specific like a church that was commonplace first in the Latin and Greek worlds in which the clergy who then spread Christianity were trained and steeped in the nomenclature and terminology of their profession.

 

It is, however, indicative of the emphasis on imperial legacy in Mannin and the tendency for Gaelic language and culture to be sidelined...

 

Now we're the hapless victims of Roman and Byzantine imperialism as well? Crikey! And to think that Africa thinks it had it rough.

[Frances]

There is a problem with showing derivation of words - complete lack of written manx much before 17th C - the usual aruguments then fall back onto placenames but these too seem to have a hiatus at the Viking period - names originating prior to this are very uncommon (George Broderick's study has found a few more) - what developed into yesterday's Manx (today's is somewhat of a new invention rather like Hebrew) seemed to derive post 11th C and coming from Ulster.

The Irish written record goes back quite a lot further.

Re Celtic inferority complex - I suspect until recently there was something of a victim culture about it needing an external enemy (generally the Brits) to act as a nucleus (we don't quite know what we are but we know what we are not) - the revival of Irish, Scots Gaelic (many excellent histories are appearing of the western Isles etc) + now Manx should help remedy this but just because eg the English language borrowed automobile terms from the French it doesn't mean that it didn't develop in its own direction.

[Freggyragh]

Albert, I don't want to get into the origin of Cele or De, except to say that Cele is cognate with Manx 'guilley' (boy/servant) and De with 'Jee' (God). I see where you are coming from, but if Cele (servant) is the root of keeill I'd be surprised. It is in a lot of Gaelic surnames though, eg; MacGill-Eain (Son of the Servant of John) - MacLean.

 

Back to celer:

 

Academics seem to concur that the soft c pronunciation of French 'celer', the second c in English 'conceal' and the pronunciation of many other Latin derived words in English, such as 'Caesar', comes from a palatial shift that took place in Vulgar Latin as it developed in France, and in England after the Norman Conquest. This is explains the Caesar / Kaiser difference and the two ways of pronouncing Celtic.

 

C is always pronounced as a hard sound in Irish / Scottish Gaelic, and is generally represented in Manx by K, as Manx developed a written language seperate from Old Irish after the change.

 

There is no argument that plenty of Latin nomenculture came into Manx with Christianity eg. saggyrt - priest (English cognate - sacred) aspick - bishop (English cognate episcopal) agglish - church (organization) (English cognate - ecclesiastic). A However, not all Christian nomenculture in Manx comes from Latin, eg casherick - holy (Hebrew cognate - kosher) and noo - holy/saint (Old Irish cognate - noeib, Sanskrit cognate - naib).

 

The earlier pan-Celtic usage was what I was getting at Frances. As you no doubt know Latin borrowed words from Celtic too. For readers who don't, here are a few random examples: From Gaulish caballus (Manx - cabbyll) comes cavalry and cavalier, from Brittish mine (Manx - meayn) mine and mineral, from carbanto (Manx 'carrbyd' & Welsh 'carr' ) car and carpenter, and from Gaulish ambactus comes ambassador.

 

There are plenty of other cognates between Latin and Celtic that probably stem from the same Indo-European roots eg, claideb/cliwe (sword) - gladius, elley (other)- alia, shennagh (old person) - senex, balley/valley - villa etc.

 

A thought I covered the pan-Celtic roots of 'keeill'. But I'll elaborate:

 

The Christian keeill site at Mount Murray was built, they reckon, on a pre-Christian religious site. It is thought that pre-Christian Celtic shrines were located in groves - the Manx for grove - Keyll. We know that these pre-Christian shrines were concealed. The name of the pre-Christian Ulster hero of Irish Mythology - Celtchair - means 'concealment' The Greeks give us the earliest account of the Celts - from around 6,OOO BC. They call the people 'Keltoi' ("the hidden people") (Manx - Keltee), Julius Caesar writes in De Bello Gallico that the Gauls he was fighting called themselves Celts. Classical writers describe Celtic religion as being practiced by a secretive druidic caste with rites taking place in concealed groves.

 

In conclusion, the IndoEuropean root 'kel' gives us many words, in many languages, but for the Celts it was a very significant word, the root of the word Celt, and more than likely the root of 'keeill' - a place of worship.

 

I just can't see that keeill comes from Latin - I accept that its cognate existed in Latin, that 'cell' came into English via Latin, but that the roots of the word 'keeill' date from before Christianity in Manx and the Celtic roots of Manx, and seem to go back millennia.

 

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Frances' comment that yesterday's Manx comes from post C11 Ulster is just wrong. Manx was strongly influenced by Ulster and Scottish Gaelic after this time but there are enough words from Primitive Irish to demonstrate a much older lineage. Look to the Ogham found at Ballaqueeney for further proof. What language do you think the poor lady found at Mount Murray was speaking in 590 - 7 years before the death of Columb Killey (Saint Columba) and a year after the death of St Uinniau (495 - 589)?

 

A few general points about Manx Gaelic:

 

There are new words coming into Manx, and have been ever since it diverged from Irish. Manx speakers can, however, communicate with Irish speakers without too much misunderstanding. When we talk about Old Irish we are also, more or less, talking about Old Manx and Old Scottish Gaelic. All of the examples of Manx words I have given cannot be found in either Scottish Gaelic or Irish (although they will be spelt differently), and with the exception of the loan words from Latin they can also be found in much earlier Celtic. The main difference between Manx and Irish besides quite minor idiomatic, grammatical and pronunciation differences is the inclusion of some old English words in Manx - most of which modern English speakers can't recognize as English anymore.

 

I think, Frances, you misunderstand the situation of Modern Manx. Unlike Hebrew, Manx never ceased to be a spoken language - despite all the odds. Hebrew on the other hand was effectively dead for centuries. The last native speaker of "yesterday's Manx" died in 1974 but there were fluent speakers alive to mourn his passing, many of whom had learnt Manx and used it since the 1930s. On Sunday I was listening to the presenter of Moghrey Jedoonee - Brian Stowell - who has been a Manx speaker since the mid-fifties. Manx speakers today have not had to re-invent the language. Almost all new words in "Neo-Manx" are composed from Gaelic particles, the exceptions are brandnames and proper names - eg Nintendo, Dalek etc. I remember a few years ago there was a letter in one of the Manx Newspapers disparaging "Neo-Manx" for introducing a "new" alternative word for 'fifty' - the "new" word in question was 'queigad' - the very same word found written in Ogham at Mount Murray!

 

I have been enjoying this Frances, but victim culture? Don't quite know who we are? Celtic inferiority complex? That's a bit 'Jade Goody' isn't it? There is no 'external enemy' here, just an apathetic attitude to our own cultural treasures. I just think Manx history and culture is worth discussing on this forum, particularly pre-1765 history. I completely agree wih you that we should be adding to the growing study of Irish / Hebridean / Irish Sea history from our own perspective. Thanks though for adding to the debate.