Muslim Separation

[manxchatterbox]

does wearing a veil separate society??

 

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:HhdWAQa...t=clnk&cd=1

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqab

 

...don't you just think a woman in a veil is sexy??

[ermo]

Oh & since when have we in the West become the very model of sense and decency?? lead by example I say.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5414396.stm

 

 

Blair promises 'more for troops' - Or in other words Blair makes a promise that other people sons, daughters, friends & loved one's will die in Afghanistan.... Whilst his own son Ewan takes it easy it in California...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5414974.stm

[Gladys]

I was hoping there may be a stimulating debate on this on MF, as I think Jack Straw has a point, whether he is right or not is a different matter.

 

This was debated on Newsnight tonight during which it was claimed that racism against Muslims remained the last 'respectable' racism in Europe. Then another view was simply (if inelegantly) put; how can you have a face to face conversation with someone whose entire face except their eyes is obscured? How does that sit with openness and integration?

 

By no means am I a supporter of the 'War on Terrorism', even less the

debacles we have gotten ourselves into in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now just gearing up for another with Iran!

 

But, there is a question to be answered there; putting political correctness to one side and in the interests of achieving some kind of resolution to this increasingly polarised situation, it should be debated and answered.

 

My question would simply be: why, when you live in a modern society, do you choose to adopt medieval customs which put up barriers to simple day to day exchange and understanding? I fully accept that you wish to practise your traditional customs, but why perpetuate both the subjugation of females to chattels not to be looked upon by any other than your husband and, more broadly, the distancing of yourself to wider society?

 

Newsnight had two women from Leicester who had decided, for some time, to wear the full veil and the main reasons seemed to be it increased their confidence, stopped them thinking about body image and living up to the required standard of beauty (for which I do have some sympathy) and preserved their modesty!

 

I am not advocating snatching veils from women at bus stops ( as has happened in Liverpool), but a little of me does wonder, the world can try to make you a victim, but it is only you that finishes off the job!

 

Undecided, but I think it is a debate that must be had.

[ermo]

Who is subjugating who here? With regards to the Women's role in our current 'Western' society, It would appear that the struggle for equal rights have been replaced by some form of corporatised Malibu Stacey type values which upholds the right to wear the right cosmetics, wear fur, drive the right car, chase money, smoke, get pissed & wear the least amount clothes possible... then Men will really like you... type mentality. I mean just look in any Celeb type magazine or Newspaper for inspiration.

 

How many adverts for nijabs have you seen on TV??

 

Is our society perfect??? No, So just who the hell are we to preach??

[Gladys]

You are absolutely right Ermo, I am not saying that our society is perfect, but what I am saying is that neither side should

take the moral high ground here, but each should ignore political correctness and examine why they are doing what they are doing.

 

I haven't seen ads for nijabs, or the full head veil, or jewish skullcaps, or catholic crosses. But that is irrelevent, what matters is that each side tries to understand the other and makes a concerted effort to do so.

[Cronky]

It is part of the culture of the peoples of the British Isles to read another persons expression in a conversation. This is fundamental to understanding and building relationships. Witness the debate about 'hoodies'.

 

Islamic veils go agaisnt our culture and they are a very obvious barrier to integration. It appears rude to cover your face. That is ingrained in our way of thinking.

 

In a free western society you can wear what you like subject to a minimum covering. Muslim women who wear the veil will simply have to understand that very many people will regard it as a bit rude an find it off putting.

 

However . . . It seems the Muslim community does not want to integrate that much. We have a problem.

[Albert Tatlock]

People should be allowed to wear what they want, including veils, hoodies and hats in pubs.

 

However, as well as communication, feminism etc. don't underestimate how much of these debates (veils, hoodies or hats) are about simply being able to recognise faces and therefore movements on CCTV. Not being flippant, but wouldn't it be easy for the odd wannabe terorist to easily move around the country wearing one of these things? You can never tell who is hidden in such an outfit - male or female.

 

I like to say good morning when I am out walking or pop into the bank etc. In the UK I have found these outfits a complete block on communication - a kind of 'you can't see me, so I can't see you' - and 'a good morning' invariably does not illicit a response.

 

Getting these people to change what they wear is an uphill struggle and won't happen in the UK for fifty or a hundred years. It would be like trying to get the pope or bishops to wear jeans and a T-shirt to 'fit in' with the rest of society - and ain't gonna happen!

 

Edited to add: wearing these veils is a recent phenomenon in this country. Many British born muslims are wearing them when their mothers previously did not. What's that really about?

[Addie]

I support Jack Straw's stance on this (and that's a rare thing).

 

I have to stand in public view and look to the camera and allow myself to be frisked at airports. I have to present my passport which is examined and my face examined to prove some similarity to the image.

 

I have to watch from afar and witnes the sad sight of my daughter passing through security and having to single handedly remove her sleeping baby from its pram so both can be examined for security reasons.

 

Sad but necessary these days I know.

 

But, I haven't yet seen a woman in a veil stand beside me in the queue and be directed to "look into the camera" or being frisked at the airport.

 

This must happen I suppose, but elsewhere perhaps, away from the indignity of the public gaze maybe?

 

Maybe we should all hide our identity behind veils or masks and take to the streets, strolling past police and security cameras with impunity.

 

So who on earth can know what or who is hidden behind this?

 

 

And how can one meet, greetn relate or communicate with people wearing them? The wearing of these veils seems to me to be totally rejective.

 

Q. Do they go to interviews in them? Do they work in them? I'm genuinely curious.

[The Old Git]

Just some random thoughts....

 

I wonder if the shopping centres that ban the wearing of hooded tops also ban veils and burkas?

 

Do they have to take veils and burkas off when entering a bank, like motorcyclist have to do with their crash helmets?

 

What would happen if non muslims decided to walk around in ski masks all the time?

[the mo beats experience]

This is going to be an ongoing problem, and its all about racism on the part of muslims imo. Now its all about veils, before, it was about the Home Sec visiting a "muslim" area and being told they're not welcome. Whats the country coming to? Muslims are happy enough earning the money, having the securities, health and housing that this country provides, but are not willing to integrate into its society, building their own seperate communities instead. I don't know what the answer to this debate is, if there even is an answer.

[simon]

wearing these veils is a recent phenomenon in this country. Many British born muslims are wearing them when their mothers previously did not.

 

Same with the hoodies.

 

It'll probably go out of fashion. Like petticoats and bonnets.

[Juan Kerr]

Muslims are happy enough earning the money, having the securities, health and housing that this country provides, but are not willing to integrate into its society, building their own seperate communities instead. I don't know what the answer to this debate is, if there even is an answer.

 

Its about integration. There are many Muslims out there that do want to integrate, whilst still being free to pursue their regilion and culture. That is fine. The problem is when you get the extremists, and there does seem to be a particular wish on behalf of extremists to want to live 13th Century lives. The Burka is a prime example - the only thing it stands for is the subjecation of women and reinforce the stonage attitude extremist Muslim men have about women.

 

Western values are too sexualised, and in contrast the Burka is ridiculous. There has to be some middle ground.

 

I think most people accept headscarves as a symbol of religion but you cannot claim to want to integrate and walk around in a Burka - you might as well cut a slot and two foot holes in a big cardboard box and walk around in that. Its no way to integrate with anyone.

 

Also there have been cases in Iraq where terrorists have deliberately worn Burka's to undertake terrorist acts and there have been reports of Bin Laden himself hiding behind a Burka to escape capture, so from a security perspective alone they should be BANNED with immediate effect in the West. I for one would not get on a plane with any individual who refused to reveal their identity to other passengers.

 

In the West we are far to tolerant, I have seen women go to Saudi Arabia and other strict Islamic states on business and be pinched and spat at in the street for wearing western dress. That is the level they operate at, so I don't see what is wrong with us playing by the same rules.

[sideways]

Last winter a friend of mine who is lacking in the hair department was wearing a tight fitting hat (don't know the name of the style), he was told to remove it to go through the security at the airport, where as the chap infront walked straight through no problem with his turban.

 

One rule for one !

[The Agitator]

This is Great Britain, we are British (Manx over here) The Muslims and anyone else needs to realise:

 

'When in Rome.......

 

need i say anymore apart from if they don't like it - F-off back to where they come from - and that's no racist, as it applies to anyone including me - if I go to Aussie to live and don't like it, I can F-off bcak too? Fair?

[localyokel]

but you cannot claim to want to integrate and walk around in a Burka - you might as well cut a slot and two foot holes in a big cardboard box and walk around in that. Its no way to integrate with anyone.

 

I think we should look at setting up a new religion with the most ridiculous clothing. Maybe one that forces you to dress as a pirate with a patch and wooden leg, or perhaps a goldfish bowl on the head, and flippers.