Muslim Separation

[Chinahand]

... other than racists and muslim bashers who want to make an issue about a small subsection of a small subsection of our community.

 

I am neither racist, nor a 'muslim basher,' but I do feel that the veil should not be worn in public places. Remember, if Muslim women choose to wear the full face-covering garment (and it is a choice), they must accept that there are places where they will not be welcomed.

 

I think we are in agreement, but I don't think you are right to use the word public places. In public a muslim woman can do what she wants, but if she want to enter a premises then she must abide by the terms and conditions necessary for entering that premises. IF a bank inisists she removes her veil, she should remove her veil. But as I've said above, I don't think many banks do have this condition and I am not that surprised by this.

 

Please note - this is NOT what Jack Straw was talking about: he was refering to having a private meeting with a constituent in his clinic and if she refused that was fine by him. No compulsion involved, just a request.

 

This issue has been extended well beyond what was originally said by Jack Straw. We aren't quite into angles on needle heads, but the relevence of this debate for something like 99.99% of premises and people is zero.

[manxchatterbox]

From BBC today:

 

A Muslim woman has been suspended by a school in West Yorkshire after she insisted on wearing a veil in lessons.

Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.

A load of provocation going on at present IMHO, with things like this. This is one of the bad effects of empowering minorities.

 

Let's have a 'Non-Muslim wear a mask day' and see how those wearing veils like it when we say hello dressed in in scary balaclavas with just two eye holes. I think they may understand just what we mean then.

 

next door wears one already

[Albert Tatlock]

From BBC today:

 

A Muslim woman has been suspended by a school in West Yorkshire after she insisted on wearing a veil in lessons.

Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.

A load of provocation going on at present IMHO, with things like this. This is one of the bad effects of empowering minorities.

 

Let's have a 'Non-Muslim wear a mask day' and see how those wearing veils like it when we say hello dressed in in scary balaclavas with just two eye holes. I think they may understand just what we mean then.

 

next door wears one already

That's only because you live in ugly street. I heard they were all 'two-baggers' up there.

 

Hee Hee.

[The Old Git]

IF a bank inisists she removes her veil, she should remove her veil.

 

I heard on the radio the other day that after some race/religion law comes in (in the UK) next year bank won't be able to insist that motorcyclists remove their crash helmets while still allowing muslim women to wear a veil in the bank, as it would be against that law to discriminate on the grounds of religion

[manxchatterbox]

what about all those friendly people who wear a white veil??

 

[Juan Kerr]

I'm confused by this ... I don't think I've ever been asked for a photo id to undertake any transactions in a bank. They rely on a signature, and as far as I am aware you don't need to be bare headed to sign a cheque.

 

I am frequently asked for my driving license - particularly if your doing large cash withdrawals. I must have been asked about 4 times in the last couple of months.

 

This is where it does get ridiculous as photo ID means nothing if your wearing a full veil.

 

The point is that none of us want to be discriminated against, but I'm sorry we are all on CCTV, we are all having to go through big ID checks at airports, we are all having our ID checked for money laundering purposes at the bank - and yet people who are statistically more likely to be terrorists or money launderers because of their hardcore religious beliefs are getting the opportunity to hide from public view. I'm sorry but I really do not think that that is on in these dangerous times we live in.

 

If I have to be monitored, checked, open and honest about everything I do I expect similar rules to apply to everyone else.

 

Jack Straw is right this is about integration above all else.

[Gladys]

Ian Hislop had it right on 'Have I Got News For You' tonight. Request the veil to be removed, don't legislate for it, and understand that it is seen by many Muslim commentators as being about subjugation of women, not religion!

 

I think I probably err more towards libertarian views, but my question remains, put aside PC (on both sides) and examine exactly why you are doing what you are doing. Are the women who feel they need to be veiled being veiled succumbing to an oppressive attitude towards women and are those who would like to see the veil banned really frightened of different cultures. Does each end of the specturm really want to integrate with the other?

[manxchatterbox]

are you allowed to / what are the 'rules' if you display wearing a cross in Muslim countries??

[Albert Tatlock]

From BBC today:

 

A Muslim woman has been suspended by a school in West Yorkshire after she insisted on wearing a veil in lessons.

Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.

A load of provocation going on at present IMHO, with things like this. This is one of the bad effects of empowering minorities.

Turns out she didn't wear her veil at her interview - an interview conducted by a male school governor.

[Juan Kerr]

Bilingual support worker Aishah Azmi, 24, was asked to remove the veil after pupils found it hard to understand her during English language lessons.[/i]

 

Turns out she didn't wear her veil at her interview - an interview conducted by a male school governor.

 

This is where anti-discrimination legislation becomes a joke. A C of E school couldn't turn her down for a job on religious grounds so has to employ her, she then starts work, kids complain they can't hear her properly, and she then accuses a C of E school of discrimination.

 

If the anti-discrimination rules were not there you wouldn't have had a Muslim employed by a C of E school in the first place. But you can't even do that anymore. You have no grounds not to offer employment, because you're scared they'll claim discrimination and force you to give them the job anyway, and when you do offer them the job they take the piss.

 

The world is mad, and playing into the hands of the unscrupulous.

[joeyconcrete]

David Davis summed it up for me;

 

He said there was a feeling some Muslim leaders wanted to be protected "from criticism, argument, parody, satire and all the other challenges that happen in a society that has free speech as its highest value

 

...

 

Whether we are creating a series of closed societies within our open society.

[Tuna Sandwich]

My guess is it will all go quiet in a week or two. More and more muslim women (or men) will wear the veil to hide their identity. In a few month it will be the norm. People will not bat an eyelid at them. Suddenly, there will be a spree of suicide bombings killing hundreds maybe even thousands. The bombers will not have been caught on CCTV this time so there will not be links back to specific mosques etc. Then people will be saying "How could we have let this happen?"

 

Edited for spelling

[When Skies Are Grey]

so there will not be links back to specific mosques etc. Then people will be saying "How could we have let this happen?"

 

Edited for spelling

 

Which helped how exactly??? Dawn raids on houses after weeks of observation which turned out to have nothing more than some dodgy pron on his PC??? Genius.

 

C'mon this "war on terror" is nothing more then jingoistic fear generating media friendly sound bites that help stoke up the racial/religious tension in the first place.

 

Sept 11 was in inside job

Osama is on the CIA payroll

George Bush is an alien

Im donning my tin foil hat as I type

Goodnight

[Chinahand]

Mr Blair has touched on this in his monthly press conference BBC Link

 

I have to say I am concerned about all this. I worry that people are equating devotion with extremism and I am not convinced that is a good thing.

 

We have many religious groups: the Plymouth Bretherin, Orthodox Jews, Quakers, the multiple Catholic orders of Monks and nuns, where people due to their devotion to their faith withdraw from mainstream society and separate themselves.

 

This has been an accepted part of our society for many many generations. These people are not extremists, they are devote in their faith.

 

I am not convinced that those who wear the full veil are much different from this. People seem to be automatically saying these people are extremists who will be involved in terrorism etc and hence must be held under suspicion etc.

 

I do not deny there is a serious problem of Muslim extremism in the UK and Europe, but to assume every veiled person is an extremist goes far too far.

 

I also agree that this is a growing issue in the Muslim community and we have got to make sure that the size of the communities withdrawing from our society do not affect social stability ... this is not a problem for the hundreds of thousands of orthodox jews who live in the UK and I am not convinced it is yet an issue in the Muslim community, but we have to be aware of the issue.

 

However I recently read an article which talked about the biggest struggle (jihad) of most Muslims in Europe was attempting to fit in, not to exclude themselves. I am of the opinion that social exclusion is making young Muslims seek another identity and if schooling and job prospects were better fewer would withdraw from our society. Many Muslims in France say they have not rejected French society it is French society which has rejected them.

 

The current headlines aren't good for integration and seem to me to be creating division. The percentage of muslims who wear a veil is absolutely tiny, the percentage who wear a head scarf more significant, but I doubt it is above 30% (anyone got a better estimate).

 

IMHO this is a wedge issue which politicians are pushing for their own agenda, not due to a genuine problem in our society.

[P.K.]

We aren't quite into angles on needle heads

What, like that famous right-angle? Or the somewhat tricky question "Is 180 degrees an angle at all?". Or are you actually referring to "Angels on a pin" and just mixed your metaphors a tad?

The scholars of Alexandria spent a considerable portion of their blameless lives arguing about how many angels could stand on the point of a pin. The trouble is that the more one tries to define almost anything the more confusing and and difficult it seems to become.

Amen to that.

 

Surely there are two simple facts here that should be the central mainstays of any judgement on this:

 

1. The UK is a predominantly Christian country and an etremely tolerant one. If the pupils you are trying to teach claim you are failing them, for whatever reason, then you should be removed. It's not exactly rocket science. You can claim it's racism or whatever but it's not. You can't do the job so off you go.

 

2. The human face usually has a couple of eyes, a nose and mouth, forehead, chin etc etc. BUT your brain is incredibly attuned to being able to pick out subtle differences in literally millions of individuals. If you have the intellect to think it through you will realise that it's actually a very nifty trick. When you couple that to the simple (but unpalatable fact for the teaching lady in question) that it is not only what you say but also the way you say it. Eyes, inflection, mouth, body language etc etc. On some of the corporate training days I was forced to attend some would state that during human communication the words were only 10% of the message and the body language et al were the other 90%.

 

Basically any woman wearing the viel is denying her own humanity. A very very stupid way to behave. For once I think the French have got it almost right - ban all overtly religious symbols in schools. If the young have barriers to integration then nothing will change.