Muslim Separation

[simon]

Chinahand - I think that Blair used the issue to divert media attention. The main feature of that press conference was the PM's inability to define what "when the job is done" means with respect to the continuing military involvement in Iraq and Afganistan. That should have been the headline.

 

Jack Straw can babble on about Muslim women wearing veils. Perhaps he'd rather be remembered for that.

 

Actually he'll be remembered as the Foreign Secretary in a cabinet which chose to involve Britain in ill conceived and unwinnable wars in Iraq and Afganistan (where nobody ever wins a war - so he obviously hadn't read Flashman).

 

If Foreign Secretaries are judged on the success of their foreign policies then Jack Straw was probably one of the worst ever Foreign Secretaries.

 

And Blair will be remembered for Iraq.

[P.K.]

Chinahand - I think that Blair used the issue to divert media attention. The main feature of that press conference was the PM's inability to define what "when the job is done" means with respect to the continuing military involvement in Iraq and Afganistan. That should have been the headline.

Total bollox. When the internal security forces can contain and deal with the insurgency then they will no longer need foreign troops to do it for them. Can the PM read the future enough to put a date against it to satisfy the average (i.e. moronic) Daily Mail reader? I mean, why should he bother...

Exactly which part of that very obvious situation is it that you don't understand?

[simon]

Total bollox. When the internal security forces can contain and deal with the insurgency then they will no longer need foreign troops to do it for them.

 

That seems like a rather unlikely outcome.

 

Can the PM read the future enough to put a date against it to satisfy the average (i.e. moronic) Daily Mail reader? I mean, why should he bother...

Exactly which part of that very obvious situation is it that you don't understand?

[Lonan3]

Total bollox. When the internal security forces can contain and deal with the insurgency then they will no longer need foreign troops to do it for them.

 

That should be around the same time that this happens

LINK

[Juan Kerr]

I do not deny there is a serious problem of Muslim extremism in the UK and Europe, but to assume every veiled person is an extremist goes far too far.

 

On the contrary if they are living in Europe and chose to adopt such a style of dress I think its safe to say that they ARE extremist's. Certainly more extreme than the average Muslim who does not feel the need to dress in such a medieval way, and welcomes some of the freedoms of a liberal society.

[manxchatterbox]

couldn't the IOM make it a residency qualification that other than vicars and priests of the Christian faith the wearing in public by any person of any other clothing of a religious significance is not permitted?

[Juan Kerr]

couldn't the IOM make it a residency qualification that other than vicars and priests of the Christian faith the wearing in public by any person of any other clothing of a religious significance is not permitted?

 

You don't understand do you? This is not about wearing religious clothes. Its about hiding yourself from view and failing to integrate by distancing your self from other people.

[P.K.]

Total bollox. When the internal security forces can contain and deal with the insurgency then they will no longer need foreign troops to do it for them.

That seems like a rather unlikely outcome.

Can the PM read the future enough to put a date against it to satisfy the average (i.e. moronic) Daily Mail reader? I mean, why should he bother...

Exactly which part of that very obvious situation is it that you don't understand?

And your point is??????

 

Like the Falklands, Belize etc etc I suspect that there will always be a British military presence in Iraq. However to bang on about fixing an exit date for the main forces so that you can then pillory them if they miss it really is very very stupid.

 

By the way, bought any DVD's from Channel Islands Tesco recently?

[simon]

However to bang on about fixing an exit date for the main forces so that you can then pillory them if they miss it really is very very stupid.

 

You're probably being too harsh on yourself. Your focus on dates isn't stupid. It just, maybe, misses the point.

 

I think that what sensible people are looking for is some realistic sense of what "the job" is in Iraq. Then there might be a better sense of what the PM means when he talks about military involvement ending when the job is "done".

[Chinahand]

I think that what sensible people are looking for is some realistic sense of what "the job" is in Iraq. Then there might be a better sense of what the PM means when he talks about military involvement ending when the job is "done".

 

Isn't this the debate started by General Whateverhisnameis ... the job is meant to be providing stability while the Iraqi army is trained to take over security.

 

The trouble is everyone ... even Blair and the General ... now admit US and UK forces are creating instability. The real dilema is the fact that the instability the US and UK are creating is actively hindering the creation of a stable Iraqi army.

 

Getting the balance right is a lot more difficult than any armchair observer can imagine.

 

Withdraw too early and the Iraqi army isn't able to stop chaos the occupation has created ... result civil war.

 

Withdraw too late and the chaos the occupation has created has resulted in a civil war.

 

The critical question is whether these too time periods now overlap and collapse is inevitable.

 

That is still too difficult to tell and I'll still listen to both sides of the argument.

 

Lots of people have already made up their mind. I don't know. Our government was instrumental to the mess in Iraq and I don't think we should wash our hands of it IF we can still be positively involved.

 

There are hopes for a larger settlement, but this is geopolitics on a grand scale and it sure is complex. This BBC report was interesting.

 

Violence in Iraq could end "within months" if Iran and Syria joined efforts to stabilise the country, says Iraqi President Jalal Talabani.

 

However, Mr Talabani said was not worried by reports that James Baker's panel may recommend an early - or phased - withdrawal of coalition troops from Iraq.

 

"I'm sure that no-one will decide to pull out quickly in Iraq," he told the BBC's Jim Muir.

 

The idea for the US to open talks with Iran and Syria over Iraq is said to be under consideration by a panel of experts examining US policy on Iraq.

 

The panel, led by a former US secretary of state, is also said to think that "staying the course" is untenable.

 

"Our commission believes that there are alternatives between the stated alternatives, the ones that are out there in the political debate of 'stay the course' and 'cut and run,'" James Baker told ABC News recently.

[Shadey Burger]

BRILLIANT!

This is an editorial written by a British citizen, published in a

National newspaper He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on,

please!

IMMIGRANTS, NOT BRITS MUST ADAPT.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are

offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist

attacks on the 7th of the 7th we have experienced a surge in

patriotism by the majority of Brits. However, the disgust about

the attacks had

barely settled when the "politically correct! " crowd began

complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was

offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against

anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Britain , Our

population is almost entirely made up of descendants of

immigrants.

(The Danes, Romans etc.) However, there are a few things that

those who have recently come to

our country, and apparently some born here, need to

understand. This idea of the Brits being a

multicultural community has served only to dilute our

sovereignty and our national identity. As Britain 's we have our

own culture, our own society, our own language and our own

lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of

struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women

who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Indian, Urdu, Arabic, Chinese,

Japanese, Russian, or any other language

Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the

language!

"Land of Hope & Glory" is our motto. This is not some

Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto

because Christian men and women, on Christian principles,

founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is

certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If

God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of

the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If the 'Union Jack' flag offends you, or you don't like our

QUEEN, then you should seriously consider a move to another

part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no

desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things

where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our

lifestyle. Our Laws give every citizen the right to express his

opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so!

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about

our flag,our lifestyle our government, or our way of life, I highly

encourage you take advantage of one other great BRITISH

freedom,

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

It is Time for Gt.Britain to Speak up

If you agree -- pass this along;

if you don't agree -- delete it!

[Chinahand]

Thought there was something wrong about the above ... displaying things on school walls just didn't make sense.

 

I'm not particularly surprised to find its an edited American email myth:

 

Check out: Here and Here for American Versions.

 

For me the most important characteristic of the BRITISH are that they are pragmatic and tolerant. If people want to wear kilts, Jewish hats, habits or veils that's fine with me. Just accept other people will not want to and don't try to enforce your ideas on us. Explain them to us, certainly, and its for the best if you muck in and get involved, but we've always accepted some people who don't. However we've always been a bit suspicious of such free loaders on our hospitality and so don't abuse our tolerance.

 

Extremists definitely are undermining the tolerance of our society at the moment, but I am not convinced it is only muslim extremists who are doing this ... xenophobes and racists are also setting an agenda. I oppose both sets of extremism.

[the mo beats experience]

It seems the Ausies got that email too China.

 

smhnews

 

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on

Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a

bid to

head off potential terror attacks.

 

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to

 

Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John

 

Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a

 

crackdown.

 

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that

some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not

accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by

parliament.

 

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia

law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on

national television.

 

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws

 

governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the

 

Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law,

 

independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the

 

opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps,

then, that's a better option", Costello said.

 

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he

said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the

other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that

 

Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off.

 

Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want

to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can

basically clear off", he said.

 

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by

saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques Quote:

 

"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am

tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some

individual

or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced

a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians." "However, the dust

from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct'

crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was

offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge

against

anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However,

there

are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and

apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia

being a

multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and

our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own

society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This culture has

been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by

millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

 

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,

Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become

part

of our society, Learn the language!"

 

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right

wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on

Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

It is

certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God

offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as

your new home, because God is part of our culture."

 

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is

that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

 

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go",

then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We

are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really

don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your

culture, but do not force it on others.

 

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow

you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,

whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs,

or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other

great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

 

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.

You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

[Chinahand]

One thought that came to me recently is: what is the motivation for these ladies to wear a veil?

 

AKAIK there is no requirement to wear a veil in the Koran, the issue for Mohammed was that women should dress modestly.

 

I've been reading accounts by younger, more radical muslim women, usually born in Britain - I wouldn't describe them as extremist, but they are proud of their separate identity.

 

They say they are wearing the veil as a deliberate sign of their difference and as a display of their faith.

 

That interests me cos could doing that be described as being modest? I don't think so, rather than being veiled to draw attention away from them, they are wearing it to gain attention.

 

It raises the issue that being modestly dressed - dressed in a manner which does not attract attention to you - changes depending on the culture. What is nondescript in Jeddah isn't nondescript in Douglas or Blackburn.

 

I thought it was interesting so thought I'd pass it on.

 

Its a bit sad that as far as I know there are no Muslims regularly posting on the forum: we've Christians, atheists, Jews, and agnostics, but no Muslims ... shame that ... the end result is the ignorant discussing things they don't really know ... which isn't the best for the infromative debate.

 

Is there a Mosque on the Island? With various Bangladeshi doctors etc working here, I'd have thought there would be ... or maybe they just use private homes?

[Albert Tatlock]

That interests me cos could doing that be described as being modest? I don't think so, rather than being veiled to draw attention away from them, they are wearing it to gain attention.

 

Is there a Mosque on the Island? With various Bangladeshi doctors etc working here, I'd have thought there would be ... or maybe they just use private homes?

I agree that these women are drawing nothing but attention to themselves, and that this defeats the object of wearing a veil in the first place. There are ulterior motives at work here, no doubt with husbands pulling the strings.

 

I don't think there is an obvious mosque on the island. If planning permssion was to be sought for a mosque here, I think our politicians need to learn from the UKs failure to learn from their own experience, and oppose (or at least significantly limit the size, location and noise emitted from) such a structure.

 

IMHO, politics and religion should always be separate. The real problem with mosques is that, as Islam so closely ties 'politics and state' (and many muslims want an islamic state, or for the countries they reside in to become one), many people see a mosque as representing a 'flag' or a stake in the ground. I think this is why many people don't like them on their doorstep.

 

At present, IMHO, mosques can be likened to trojan horses - built with our own tolerance and respect for the civil liberties of minorites, yet for a religeon out to destroy the civil liberties of the majority. Until we see the separation of their politics from their religeon, the answer should always be NO to new mosques.