Muslim Separation

[LoneWolf]

Another query, how are we to have secular schools/integrated schools when many Muslim men not only dont want their daughters in school beyond the age of 13 (after which they MUST be separated by boys if they are to continue on), they dont want their daughters in school at *all*? Perhaps I'm not discussing so much the moderate Muslims here, but there are a great many new immigrants who believe in these traditional values...now do you see their need not only for their OWN schools, but separate boys and girls-and to be paid for by the average tax payer! wow!

 

Catholic schools receive state funding. Jewish schools receive state funding and so do CoE schools.

I could make the obvious analysis here about singling out one particular group of people for this sort of critical questioning. However, there seems to be a general hostility on the Forum to identifying racism so I'll resist the temptation.

 

let it never spiral to the ghetto extents of London and Birmingham

 

Immigrant ghettos came about because of racist housing policies. New arrivals, from India, Pakistan et al found themselves unable to get housing in a great many areas of our large cities. Where housing was available it tended to be in areas where immigrants could be housed together. In their own communities as the Town Hall speak of the day would have it. Having herded people into ghettos by means of racist housing policies we than find a hail of criticism coming the way of those immigrants by reason of their refusal to integrate. [witness the fact they all live together]

There is nothing new about this. Irish immigrants suffered the same treatment, so did Jewish immigrants and Black immigrants from the West Indies. They also all suffered the same criticisms as today's immigrants.

 

The fact is the values espoused do not currently gel in some crucial capacities and this is causing friction-their apparent desire to do what they please leads to the same cultural isolation they hypocritically lament

 

You should clarify this by reminding everyone you are specifically criticising Muslims immigrants.

You dont make any criticism of or even contrast these values and practices with the values and practices of our Catholic, Jewish, Sikh, Buddist communities.

 

I think you might find it useful and informative to read through this web site

 

The relevant piece is this definition

 

In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

 

I hope you find this useful.

[elle1980]

^ thanks for pointing that out. I won't bother to rebuff that, as basically I believe I have singled out Islam (this is a thread based on that of course) and everybody is racist to some degree are they not? (anybody who thinks otherwise is joking themselves). It is not a black and white scenario we are looking at and it's simply redundant to label one a racist, an obvious (weak) leftie rebuke. The point is, what is the best in terms of the majority of society given the current situation? Critical analysis and commentary and proactive actions from governments should not be bogged down by PC rhetoric.

[P.K.]

Aisa Azmi, the Muslim woman who’s put this topic back at the top of the agenda, argues that her demand to wear the veil is a fight on behalf of women everywhere. Nonsense. It’s actually the opposite – a warning to employers to watch out for any signs of loony fundamentalism.

 

And that, I think, is my main objection to Ms Azmi’s employment: not the fact that she managed to undergo a job interview in front of a panel that included a man without needing to cloak up; not the fact that she had the stupidest job title in existence ( Ethnic Minority Achievement Curriculum Support Assistant); not the fact that the wearing of the burqua is a near criminal undermining of sexual equality; nor even the fact that she spent six months of her short employment on the sick – simply the fact that anyone with such extreme and unyielding views shouldn’t be let within a million miles of our children.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I think it would be absolutely ludicrous if they decided in favour of this teacher.

 

The way I see it is this: as a teacher you are a role model for your students and I think it crucial that the children/students should see the teachers face as in communication is obviously paramount to being a teacher. The veil is a symbol of oppression, nothing more and should not be worn by the teacher. All it shows is how oppression operates and she has been oppressed. Not a good role model.

 

It almost seems ridiculous that a woman claims to be oppressed because she is being told that in particular circumstances (when at work) that she is not allowed to wear a symbol of oppression.

 

I am not that much a liberal to agree with the apparent line of thinking that she may wear what she likes, when she wants and any time. Freedom of expression is vital to peoples identity and wellbeing but what a load of bollocks this is. What does not seem to be taken into much consideration is that this woman has choices, either she can wear the veil and not teach or take it off and undertake her profession. Her desire to wear this veil would impact on the teaching of these children.

 

I don't, however, think this has anything to do with Muslim fundamentalism. I know a few Muslim women who genuinely believe that covering-up protects them from men. A girl at work covers up everything apart from her face but she isn't some fundamentalist and she honestly believes it protects her. Such a belief does move the responsibility from the men to the women.

 

One thing I can say for it though. It looks a lot better for women to be covered up than to look at some of the slaggy girls you get on a night-out with their tits hanging out and skirts so short there is little more than a few inches to their fanny. In the similar way that shows how women respond to the needs of the men.

On the one hand you have the women who cover up to satisfy the men that their women won't attract undue attention and on the other you have the western women who strive obliviously to satisfy the men with what little they wear and how far they are willing to go to show they are sexual. I can't say which is the more oppressed. One thing I would say is that I would disagree with 'Elle1980' idea of viewing things from the best persepctive of the majority. I don't believe the majority are always right and the majority will always make the right choice. We would be living in worse times if the majority always made the choice. There would never have been all the discriminatory legislation that had been passed.

[Lonan3]

Don't you just love it when someone resurrects a thread that you'd hoped was over and done with?

 

LINK

 

Muslims in the Netherlands have criticised a government proposal to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa or veil in public places.

Dutch Muslim groups say a ban would make the country's one million Muslims feel victimised and alienated.

The Dutch cabinet said burqas - a full body covering that also obscures the face - disturb public order and safety.

The decision comes days ahead of elections which the ruling centre-right coalition is expected to win.

The proposed ban would apply to wearing the burqa in the street, and in trains, schools, buses and law courts in the Netherlands.

Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk, who is known for her tough policies, said it was important that all people in the Netherlands were able to see and identify each other clearly to promote integration and tolerance.

Last year a majority of MPs in the Dutch parliament said they were in favour of a ban.

 

The Mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, said he opposed the wearing of burqas in public and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits.

 

France has passed a law banning religious symbols, including Muslim headscarves, from schools.

Some German states ban teachers in public schools from wearing headscarves, but there is no blanket rule against burqas.

Italy has banned face-coverings, resurrecting old laws passed to combat domestic terrorism, while citing new security fears.

[Juan Kerr]

Don't you just love it when someone resurrects a thread that you'd hoped was over and done with?

 

The Mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, said he opposed the wearing of burqas in public and said women wearing one who failed to get a job should not expect welfare benefits.

 

I think we should be asking how something like this can be passed in the Liberal heart or Europe when the UK is still poncing around on the issues. The Dutch used to be one of the most tolerant races in Europe, but in the last couple of years they've seen the way their country has been transformed by religious fundamentalism and they have had enough. Holland used to be a nice country, but parts of it have turned into a Muslim ghetto that has been allowed to thrive because of the tolerant attitude and its right that they have chosen to fight back because if they had not certain parts of the community would have continued using the attitude of tolerance to their advantage. They have had people murdered because they dared to make films critical of Islam etc.

 

Unless you have a country that aspires to live in caves, Muslim extremism should not be allowed to hijack that society.

[DMX]

I am new to this site just as I am new to Isle of Man. I have just read all everyone's comments and links (quite entertaining) and I have to make just one point here (as I don't like writing a lengthy comment - just not my style):

I am a muslim myself but one thing I am sure is only about 3-4% (if not less) of the muslim women wear veil. Now if you know the polulation of muslim women in Britain and using this perecntage, you can do your mathematics and work out approx how many women in Britain wear veil. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU for picking on just a little minority. I don't understand why you people feel uncomfortable by just small minority.

 

I suggest negotiations on both sides eg where they should and where they should not be allowed to wear veils, but STOP supporting this political circus. All you are doing is adding fuel to something which wasn't even an issue upto 2 months ago (but suddenly it becomes an issue and you people find hard to breathe unless this issue is resolved??). Moreover, it is giving opportunity to all right wing thinkers to give their virdict and I quote:

1:The muslim community is not doing enough to integrate

2: they should F'off to where you came from

 

my view on 1:

Please suggest what you want the muslim community on this? (keeping in mind the muslim community is already divided into different sects and the women who wear veils are too small a minority)

 

my view on 2:

Erm, I think most of the muslims are born in this country, and you want to expel muslims to where? Wasn't that what Nazis did in WWII to the jews? (it's not a problem for me as I wasn't born in this country and I don't mind going back to where I came from i.e. Pakistan).

 

Oh my! I think I have said enough and bored you guys to death, for which I apologise. Also, I am as confused on this subject as anyone else, but I am sure the government can handle this situation better if they talk to muslim community without the eye of the public or making a big issue of the whole thing.

 

Regards

DMX

[Chinahand]

DMX, I am glad that this forum has, at last, a Muslim representative.

 

I don't expect you to be the voice of this particular community, you're an individual and entitled to your own thoughts and ideas, but to have someone provide a perspective from the Muslim point of view will be very helpful. Too often this forum is too full of strong opinions which are based on very little actual knowledge.

 

The outrage often expressed against the Muslim faith on the forum is too often an example of this type of posting.

 

So welcome. Please keep posting. I hope you will be able to inform us about your faith and will be given a polite hearing.

[Lonan3]

Sorry, but I can't let DMX's post go by without making a few points.

 

1. There may not be many in the UK who wear the veil, but there seemed to be many in Stockholm when I was last there - therefore I'd suggest that it is more common in some places than in others.

 

2. Yes, I do feel intimidated when talking to someone whose face is covered up - the same applies to someone who is wearing a motorcycle helmet or hiding beneath a hood.

 

3. If husbands are so insecure that they cannot allow their wives faces to be seen by other men, then I'd suggest that they seek help.

 

4. Covering up in this way is not a part of Western culture. It may be acceptable in some countries where it has become accepted practice over a very long time but - at least with reference to public places - it should not be applied in places where it clearly isn't acceptable.

 

5. I have no issues with regard to religion/beliefs/faith systems etc., because I find them all equally ridiculous.

 

6. I have no wish to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of race/religion/nationality/age/sex or anything else. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who comes our land seeking to work, to contribute to our economy, to learn our language to an acceptable standard, and to adopt our customs without necessarily abandoning their own, should be made welcome.

[The Old Git]

I am new to this site just as I am new to Isle of Man

....

Erm, I think most of the muslims are born in this country

 

I think most of the muslims are immigrants to the Isle of Man

[TheDruid-3X3]

I would rather Live In Hell than in an Islamic Country!

 

 

3X3

[Lxxx]

I would rather Live In Hell than in an Islamic Country!

 

 

3X3

I would have thought most Islamic fundamentalists would rather live in hell than in the West. Clearly not. Free housing and state handouts must loosen the morals.

[Declan]

I would rather Live In Hell than in an Islamic Country!

 

 

3X3

 

I thought already you did?

[Thomas Jefferson]

This is a bit of a generalisation but I would say 25% of the Muslims on this island are doctors. Another 25% are doctors' wives. Another 25% are their male kids who are training to become doctors and another 25% are female kids preparing to marry the aforementioned 25%. I suppose there are a handful in the financial sector as well.

[paswt]

This is a bit of a generalisation but I would say 25% of the Muslims on this island are doctors. Another 25% are doctors' wives. Another 25% are their male kids who are training to become doctors and another 25% are female kids preparing to marry the aforementioned 25%. I suppose there are a handful in the financial sector as well.

?