DjDan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 lonan.... anti-mormon postings will get no response from me. I've studied it all... and in fact most stuff has been answered in times gone by. Regardless of wether a man once belonged to our church or not... matters not. You have to know these people better than you do to understand their motivations and their lies. I could join Islam tommorrow and leave it a few days later.... then i could lie and exaggerate stories about what Muslims do and believe. Just because i was once one myself... does that mean I'm now telling the truth? What you said about christianforums is wrong. You obviously don't know the site at all. The site owner has specifically denounced mormonism based on the trinity issue. If you want to keep posting more anti-mormon crap go ahead. It's nothing new to me... but don't expect a response - not because i'm trying to avoid it, but simply because it will make no difference anyhow. Quite simply.... you have no intention on accepting the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoepatshoe Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 I have to point at this stage (as the person who started this topic) that I am extremely impressed with the depth of knowledge that so many of the people have who are adding to this thread! Just reading your comments makes me feel more and more stupid, and that I don't really know very much at all. By the way, I didn't see anybody bashing any bibles down on the prom today and my walk was, on the whole, uninterrupted. Unless of course you count the thirty foot waves that were crashing over the railings. These bible folk are obviously fair weather bashers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yeah, what he said. That's actually quite amusing.... not real.. but amusing. Shame they had to make it up actually - I'd be interested to see a real cam-captured missionary door approach. edit: actually, the more i watch it.... a very good vid. Thanx for the link. I'm definately gonna' send this one to my dad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Just reading your comments makes me feel more and more stupid i guess with the intellect of this board, that's hardly suprising [sic] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 By the way, I didn't see anybody bashing any bibles down on the prom today and my walk was, on the whole, uninterrupted. Unless of course you count the thirty foot waves that were crashing over the railings. These bible folk are obviously fair weather bashers! That's good to hear shoepatshoe. I'm glad you were able to focus your full attention on the movement of your feet. I know how tragic it can be when some young man interupts your focus with a "excuse me please?". I can just imagine your heartbreak at that precise moment and the sudden urge to say "go away you bible bashing mormons!!" lol. After which, i can again imagine how you try to focus on your sensitive feet while devastated in your soul. I apologise for the upset these young men must cause you and want to advise that in future... you look around and notice the young men before you approach... thus enabling you to run past them down the street screaming for your life. Actually.... i'm suprised you didn't hear the screaming of the group of christians in strand street outside the isle of man bank trying to advertise their Alpha Group. If you want to complain about something (which obviously you do)... you might want to make them your next target. Being serious though.... what's actually worse? - a mormon missionary who quitely asks "excuse me please?" or a group of christians screaming out so loudly that people came running out of the shops (i was in the stationery shop at the time) to see what they expected to be a fight on the street. Not only that... but when they realised it was all pretend... to run back in horrified to see shaving foam being sprayed around the street and on the group themselves - all in an act of advertising their Alpha sessions. Naturally.... i expect to see 10-20 postings to follow this one now bashing christianity in general because of this terrible confrontational demonstration today. At least.... that is what happened when it was heard that a mormon missionary was stopping people on the street with the approach of "excuse me?". Commence christian bashing: ----> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yeah, what he said. That's actually quite amusing.... not real.. but amusing. Shame they had to make it up actually - I'd be interested to see a real cam-captured missionary door approach. Amusing is exactly what I was aiming for when I posted the link, rather than abusive. I think you've had more than enough abuse in this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Perhaps board members should leave the mormons and other religions to their own? Untill they choose to use harassment as an advertisement method, I don't see the conflict with your way of life, and such why people have such great feelings of indignation towards these Mormons (and on this board, religions in general). Having a religion makes people no more stupid or gullible than anyone else, unlike being intolerant bastards, which would seem to point to both attributes. Living in a society of equal rights and free speech, and in a society that seems to frown upon muslim countries enforcing muslim ideals, why can we not leave people to exercise religious beliefs without mocking them? (Am atheist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoepatshoe Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 By the way, I didn't see anybody bashing any bibles down on the prom today and my walk was, on the whole, uninterrupted. Unless of course you count the thirty foot waves that were crashing over the railings. These bible folk are obviously fair weather bashers! That's good to hear shoepatshoe. I'm glad you were able to focus your full attention on the movement of your feet. I know how tragic it can be when some young man interupts your focus with a "excuse me please?". I can just imagine your heartbreak at that precise moment and the sudden urge to say "go away you bible bashing mormons!!" lol. After which, i can again imagine how you try to focus on your sensitive feet while devastated in your soul. I apologise for the upset these young men must cause you and want to advise that in future... you look around and notice the young men before you approach... thus enabling you to run past them down the street screaming for your life. Actually.... i'm suprised you didn't hear the screaming of the group of christians in strand street outside the isle of man bank trying to advertise their Alpha Group. If you want to complain about something (which obviously you do)... you might want to make them your next target. Being serious though.... what's actually worse? - a mormon missionary who quitely asks "excuse me please?" or a group of christians screaming out so loudly that people came running out of the shops (i was in the stationery shop at the time) to see what they expected to be a fight on the street. Not only that... but when they realised it was all pretend... to run back in horrified to see shaving foam being sprayed around the street and on the group themselves - all in an act of advertising their Alpha sessions. Naturally.... i expect to see 10-20 postings to follow this one now bashing christianity in general because of this terrible confrontational demonstration today. At least.... that is what happened when it was heard that a mormon missionary was stopping people on the street with the approach of "excuse me?". Commence christian bashing: ----> OH MY GOD! I saw those wierdo's!!!! Was that a crazy Christian group? You and I must have passed by one another like ....... two things that pass by one another without knowing that they're passing by one another!! I was just rounding the corner of the Isle of Man bank to head off down the prom as they were setting up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryMcCann Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I joined a wonderful religion yesterday. It's called the movementarians if anyone else wishes to join. All hail the leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Simon [i think] is linking these two unifications together - pantheism moving to monotheism and science unifying our understanding of nature. It is a beautiful idea, its eloquent etc. But I question why it is necessary to link these two ideas together. If there was an history of reductionism then [i think I believe that] replacing the many gods with one true God (to stand as a metaphor for everything which is unknown) would be the brilliant defining moment. [i think I believe that] monotheism would have established the philosophical respectability of reductionism. More than that - I think it established the logic of the idea. Monotheism became dominant thousands of years prior to science developed in the West. The Roman Empire officially adopted Christianity in 389 AD according to Wikipedia. Which is relatively recently. I would also question whether many Christians have ever really been entirely monotheistic. Belief in spooks, ghosts, fairies continued and developed even amongst Christians. Whilst many devout Romans still practically worship their many saints. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 OH MY GOD! I saw those wierdo's!!!! Was that a crazy Christian group? You and I must have passed by one another like ....... two things that pass by one another without knowing that they're passing by one another!! I was just rounding the corner of the Isle of Man bank to head off down the prom as they were setting up! Ha, funny enough... i was passing by just as they were setting up too... and then headed into the stationery shop just before they started shouting. Yeah - they're a group that's just come over from england to advertise the Alpha Group they'll be doing over the next few weeks. Mormon missionaries are not that bad are they now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Semantics...when you get in a plane or cross a bridge most scientists and mathematicians don't think: "I believe I can fly!", or "I believe that the bridge will hold up", though many non-scientists might. If you have an understanding of mathematics and the realisation that everything you do (even typing on here) is based on mathematics you learn to trust mathematics as it gives you repeatable answers, that you would trust your life to. Albert, that is almost exactly the way I used to think of math. My degree is a math degree and I held those same views for several years after I completed it. I still do, to a significant extent, except I am slightly less convinced than you are as to always getting repeatable answers. I think Newtonian mechanics is the obvious example. There would be no further progress if we have to double check theories each and every time we used them. Granted. But there are academics and gifted ones at that who spend their entire lives doing just what you describe. For the vast majority of us, we can take mathematical theories as a given. That is until some one a good deal more gifted than ourselves proves otherwise. It has aways struck me as being odd that something which consists entirely of logic is, for most of us, an act of faith. Not only an act of faith, but when a long standing theory is proved incorrect by some genius, tucked away in an academic closet, and given peer group agreement, we accept without question what he and his peers have proclaimed. On that basis I have to agree with your view that math is an analogue to religion. Good point and well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Evenin' all. How about a counter example - It is only due to the collapse of monotheistic ideas and the development of postmodernism that science has been able to successfully examine multiple universe/dimensional theories which allow quantum and string theories to overturn Newtonian and Einstienian ideas of space. In principle I agree that mathematics and science is certainly not the gateway to ultimate truth, and even where science is useful there are always concerns over methods and accuracy, but I think the extent to which this is a serious problem in our representation of the world through mathematics has been exaggerated slightly: "Overturn" for instance is a dangerously suggestive phrase, and not strictly accurate. Einstein's ideas, for instance, didn't overturn those of Newton's, it provided a more refined version of those ideas that took into account things that Newton could not have possibly have known. Similarly, Quantum Physics and String Theories do not overturn Newtonian and Einstienian ideas (indeed, one of the primary goals of String Theory is to unite Einstein's theory of gravity and quantum physics explanation of the microcosmic): Look at a ball being kicked, it follows a trajectory that to all extents and purposes is Newtonian in behaviour. Secondely, science hasn't been able to successfully examine multiple universe/dimensional theories, which is why they're so controversial at the moment in the scientific community, but even were this not the case your point about the collapse of monotheism and the development of postmodernism is dubious. The first instance of the many universes came in the 50's, when religion was still a fairly important element of people's lives and long before post-modernism had reached any level of prominance. Quantum mechanics came even earlier. The impetuous behind both these ideas was not some cultural watershed, but a far more mundane matter of ironing out the creases in existing theories. Ultimately mathematics can only really be used to describe reality after sufficient observation has been conducted to ensure that the description is accurate (to a sufficient degree of approximation). To use it to predict (by derivation from the mathematics contained in existing theories in the physical sciences) further properties of the universe can sometimes pay off (pluto, anti-particles), but it's really not strictly valid, either mathematically or scientifically, methodology, effectively being an educated guess (and one that can go horribly wrong when asymtotes are involved). and away I go again. (edited to reduce belligerance and pretentiousness content of post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Monotheism became dominant thousands of years prior to science developed in the West. The Roman Empire officially adopted Christianity in 389 AD according to Wikipedia. Which is relatively recently. I would also question whether many Christians have ever really been entirely monotheistic. Belief in spooks, ghosts, fairies continued and developed even amongst Christians. Whilst many devout Romans still practically worship their many saints. I'm sure people would rather I shut up, but anyway ... You've got to be careful about creating a huge paradigm shift when Christianity was adopted as the official religion of Rome. Read "Christians and Pagans" by Robin Lane Fox, he shows that the cult of Apollo had for a considerable time prior to the adoption of Christianity started to adopt montheistic ideas with the Oracle at Delphi strongly influencing the Roman world. The idea of Apollo being the unifying force behind the world with the other Gods being much more minor was very much a feature of later pagan Rome. This allowed Christianity to not seem such an unusual philosophy as it spread and subsumed Apollonian ideas. This very much links into your idea that monotheism was never entirely adopted. The multiplicity of Roman gods were replaced by Apollo and a host of minor gods, who were replaced by the Christian god with angels, spirits etc in attendence. There isn't such a paradigm shift here as the simple story of pantheism being replaced by monotheism implies. ... but surely that weakens your thesis ... there never really was a unity of theology to complement your unity of science???!! And if you say Galileo being put on trial for heresey in 1633 is a pretty good starting point for science starting to overthrow dogma. How can you say this is "relativel recent" compared to 389 AD. Its a gap of one thousand two hundred and fourty four years!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I'm sure people would rather I shut up, but anyway ... On the contrary. Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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