Bible Bashers On Douglas Prom

[simon]

... but surely that weakens your thesis ... there never really was a unity of theology to complement your unity of science???!!

 

I'm not sure. Maybe not -- as my sense of this is about a general shift towards reductionism. It doesn't demand absolute adherence.

 

//The Apostolic Creed, something akin to an early mission statement is entirely contradictory. It begins with a clear statement of a belief in the One God. It then introduces a heavenly host of other characters: Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and " the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the Prophets ".*

 

* quoting an Anglican version

 

The Holy Ghost is a difficult concept even for Catholic theologians.

 

The Holy Ghost is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. Though really distinct, as a Person, from the Father and the Son, He is consubstantial with Them; being God like Them, He possesses with Them one and the same Divine Essence or Nature. He proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle.

[Albert Tatlock]

Perhaps board members should leave the mormons and other religions to their own? Untill they choose to use harassment as an advertisement method, I don't see the conflict with your way of life, and such why people have such great feelings of indignation towards these Mormons (and on this board, religions in general).

 

Having a religion makes people no more stupid or gullible than anyone else, unlike being intolerant bastards, which would seem to point to both attributes. Living in a society of equal rights and free speech, and in a society that seems to frown upon muslim countries enforcing muslim ideals, why can we not leave people to exercise religious beliefs without mocking them?

 

(Am atheist)

As someone who normally spouts about liberal views and civil liberties etc. I understand what you mean about leaving people alone.

 

However, the problem is that these people (Islam, Christians etc. etc.) are being allowed to dominate my (our) world at the moment. When you think of what has happened over the past 5 years, this is all down to the religeous crusaders on both sides - but the end product of their beliefs is that I now need to apparently have an ID card, get cocked around at airports and worry about my friends in the forces etc. etc. etc.

 

These people need to be scruitenised and shown that they are causing major problems. Free speech and tolerence should include the right to question, and yes, insult constructively - especially when we are the people having to suffer the consequences.

 

(Am atheist)

Prove it!

[LoneWolf]

(Am atheist)

Prove it!

 

I rather liked a comment attributed to Mike Hicks when was was Secretary of the Communist Party of Britain.

TV presenter asked if he was an atheist. He replied yes. He was then asked what would he do if he was wrong. ..

His fall back position .... "Ill explain Im a lapsed Catholic and repent"

[shoepatshoe]

However, the problem is that these people (Islam, Christians etc. etc.) are being allowed to dominate my (our) world at the moment. When you think of what has happened over the past 5 years, this is all down to the religeous crusaders on both sides - but the end product of their beliefs is that I now need to apparently have an ID card, get cocked around at airports and worry about my friends in the forces etc. etc. etc.

 

These people need to be scruitenised and shown that they are causing major problems. Free speech and tolerence should include the right to question, and yes, insult constructively - especially when we are the people having to suffer the consequences.

 

Well said, well said, well said, well said!!!

 

And more people like you and me and the others on here need to stand up and be heard over this sort of thing. The point that LoneWolf made earlier on in this thread is exactly what we have to STOP doing. LoneWolf is right that is has become generally accepted in society that we are NOT allowed to challenge or mock or get upset over our 'neighbours' beliefs, and that's why we are in the position we're in!

 

A change is definately coming though, you only have to listen to Radio 4 to hear references and discussions about muslims that you would never have heard on the BBC 5 years ago. The way they are behaving is completely unacceptable and has to stop immediately. Did we all hear that story about the two muslim boys on the flight back from some holiday resort? They were acting suspiciously on purpose to freak out all the passengers FOR A LAUGH!!!!! Unbelievable. Oh and before anybody says it, I'm sure somebody knows of a muslim somewhere that is really nice and loves the Manx flag and gives money to Children In Need - change the record.

 

And whilst I'm on my soapbox - using an internet forum to rant about religious nuts is NOT an act of cowardice, LoneWolf! I haven't had to defend myself against physical attack for about 18 years and even then it was just the class bully hitting me with a board duster!! We live in a world where people do slightly more than cover you in chalk dust when their chosen deity gets challenged, so if it's ok with you, I will have my say in a faceless environment rather than get beaten to a pulp or worse!

[Lonan3]

Yes, everyone is expected to just accept that. We have a long standing tradition of tolerance in this part of the world. Embedded in that paradigm [tolerance] is a strong consensus that people should be free to follow their own belief system / religion without being held up to ridicule, without being villified, without having to defend what may or may not appear nonsense to others.

We hear a lot about local culture on this forum. Well, so there is no mistake on this matter, the paradigm of religious tolerance iis very much a central part of our culture.

Tolerance may well be one of the traditions of these islands, but I would contend that it is entirely secondary to the tradition of mockery - especially of those who attempt to convince us that they have the answers to 'life, the universe and everything'!

 

(N.B. On July 18, 1290, shortly after money lending was made heretical and illegal in England, Edward I expelled the Jews from England, making England the first European country to do so.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the British drove the Puritan minorities to the Americas.

Eighteenth-century British society was consistently troubled by the difficulty of accommodating Roman Catholicism that it regarded as inimical to liberty within its constitution.)

[LoneWolf]

 

Yes, everyone is expected to just accept that. We have a long standing tradition of tolerance in this part of the world. Embedded in that paradigm [tolerance] is a strong consensus that people should be free to follow their own belief system / religion without being held up to ridicule, without being villified, without having to defend what may or may not appear nonsense to others.

We hear a lot about local culture on this forum. Well, so there is no mistake on this matter, the paradigm of religious tolerance iis very much a central part of our culture.

Tolerance may well be one of the traditions of these islands, but I would contend that it is entirely secondary to the tradition of mockery - especially of those who attempt to convince us that they have the answers to 'life, the universe and everything'!

There is certainly no problem and never has been a problem with humour. The bulk of comments directed at DjDan in this thread, however, havent been humorous. They have been unpleasant, abusive and in my opinion amount to bullying. This sort of conduct is not a part of main stream thinking about other folk's religions and quite frankly is unacceptable.

 

(N.B. On July 18, 1290, shortly after money lending was made heretical and illegal in England, Edward I expelled the Jews from England, making England the first European country to do so.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the British drove the Puritan minorities to the Americas.

Eighteenth-century British society was consistently troubled by the difficulty of accommodating Roman Catholicism that it regarded as inimical to liberty within its constitution.)

Yes indeed. But you will concede over time Britain has become known for its political and religious tolerance?

An outsider reading these forums might be forgiven for thinking otherwise though. We have recently had threads running where outrageous anti semitic sentiments were presented as reasonable statements, where anti Islamic sentiments are being justified by reference to the acts of one or two politically motivated people, now here we are again, this time venting a collective bigoted spleen on well mannered, well presented young men , for no other reason than they are Mormons.

I hope this isnt the direction our society, in general, is heading.

[Albert Tatlock]

 

Yes, everyone is expected to just accept that. We have a long standing tradition of tolerance in this part of the world. Embedded in that paradigm [tolerance] is a strong consensus that people should be free to follow their own belief system / religion without being held up to ridicule, without being villified, without having to defend what may or may not appear nonsense to others.

We hear a lot about local culture on this forum. Well, so there is no mistake on this matter, the paradigm of religious tolerance iis very much a central part of our culture.

Tolerance may well be one of the traditions of these islands, but I would contend that it is entirely secondary to the tradition of mockery - especially of those who attempt to convince us that they have the answers to 'life, the universe and everything'!

There is certainly no problem and never has been a problem with humour. The bulk of comments directed at DjDan in this thread, however, havent been humorous. They have been unpleasant, abusive and in my opinion amount to bullying. This sort of conduct is not a part of main stream thinking about other folk's religions and quite frankly is unacceptable.

 

(N.B. On July 18, 1290, shortly after money lending was made heretical and illegal in England, Edward I expelled the Jews from England, making England the first European country to do so.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the British drove the Puritan minorities to the Americas.

Eighteenth-century British society was consistently troubled by the difficulty of accommodating Roman Catholicism that it regarded as inimical to liberty within its constitution.)

Yes indeed. But you will concede over time Britain has become known for its political and religious tolerance?

An outsider reading these forums might be forgiven for thinking otherwise though. We have recently had threads running where outrageous anti semitic sentiments were presented as reasonable statements, where anti Islamic sentiments are being justified by reference to the acts of one or two politically motivated people, now here we are again, this time venting a collective bigoted spleen on well mannered, well presented young men , for no other reason than they are Mormons.

I hope this isnt the direction our society, in general, is heading.

So if someone decided to start the 'church of the gun', or the 'church of the holy hand grenade' you would just go along with that?

 

Wake up and smell the coffee Lonewolf - people are doing just that, both under Islam and christianity. Bush is just as much a fundamentalist as any islamic suicide bomber - in fact 'fundmantelism' first described 'the evangelists' in America - only they don't use the word anymore because they use it to demonise other religeons.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people dead in 5 years down to religeon (millions upon millions throughout history), and our whole way of life being altered because of it. We have every right to question that, to insult it if we wish - and cannot be expected to simply just 'tolerate' it.

 

There is a saying "I might not believe in what you say, but I will fight to the death to let you say it". That doesn't mean I have to believe it, let it run my life or die as a result of it - when it is clearly a harmful thing - and especially when it is based on nothing more than fairy tales and human ignorance.

 

I have run out of tolerance for this rubbish, and I want back what millions of men died for in the second world war. I hope it is 'the direction' this society starts heading i.e. 'if you harm me and mine, and intend to force me to live by your beliefs, then please leave - regardless of your colour or creed'. Otherwise these idiots will be the death of us all.

[shoepatshoe]

I have run out of tolerance for this rubbish, and I want back what millions of men died for in the second world war. I hope it is 'the direction' this society starts heading i.e. 'if you harm me and mine, and intend to force me to live by your beliefs, then please leave - regardless of your colour or creed'. Otherwise these idiots will be the death of us all.

 

Albert Tatlock for Prime Minister!!! You get my vote! How will you tackle the NHS?

[LoneWolf]

There is a saying "I might not believe in what you say, but I will fight to the death to let you say it". That doesn't mean I have to believe it, let it run my life or die as a result of it - when it is clearly a harmful thing - and especially when it is based on nothing more than fairy tales and human ignorance.

 

I have run out of tolerance for this rubbish, and I want back what millions of men died for in the second world war. I hope it is 'the direction' this society starts heading i.e. 'if you harm me and mine, and intend to force me to live by your beliefs, then please leave - regardless of your colour or creed'. Otherwise these idiots will be the death of us all.

 

Albert, I smelt the coffee a long time ago and Ive developed quite a taste for the genuine article.

Speaking of which, do you really believe a few well dressed, polite young men on Douglas Promenade are likely to ruin your life or even worst cause you to die? Of course you dont.

Millions of men in WW2 didnt die to make Britain a collective of bigots. All the available evidence suggests the opposite was the case. There is also no reason to suppose that those young missionaries have any intention at all to force you to live by their beliefs let alone be the death of us all.

Smell the coffee?

[DjDan]

This topic has provided an oppurtunity for some of us to express our personal views on religion - which have clearly raised some tension and determination. None of us here will change our religious views and that is something each of us should accept and resepct. At the end of the day, our views on religion are personal to each of us and cannot, nor should not be determined by another - nor belittled for that matter!

 

I do understand that some people become offended by religious activity, but I contend that they are a minority within the community and should not be the voice of judgement. I have witnessed first hand the reaction of the public towards religion and I am happy in the knowledge that it is a minority that respond negatively. Not that people accept and rejoice in hearing the message (!) but that they who reject it, do so in an orderly manner ie. they say "no thankyou" and walk away. That's really all there is to it. There's no harm done! Just like a man asking for a donation towards his charity.. a woman asking for directions.. what happens in the scenario is one walks up to the other, and seeks their attention for a brief moment. When that moment passes.... the two people go their seperate ways - unharmed!

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The most common approach of a mormon missionary is "excuse me please?". They may then introduce themselves as a missionary from the church (and that's about as far as the conversation usually gets!!). I just cannot understand all the uproar about it. It's very easy to say "no" and 99% of the time, the missionary will not chase you down the street trying to force his religion upon you. I say 99% because each missionary is an individual, and as individuals.... there are always exceptions!! - but they are a real minority.

 

If you don't like being approached by a missionary, I understand that.. but at the same time, that's something that you must simply accept. Just as you would if someone were to stop you and ask you for the time.... it's not really a big deal is it? I know you'd rather you never have to face a situation (and may wish to ban the missionaries from the streets), but let me quickly touch upon why they will stop you.

 

1. Motivated by desire to share what he/she believes to be an important message for everyone - including you!

2. Because, not knowing you personally... he/she will not know your views on religion and will not therefore know what your reaction may be

3. Because stopping people on the street is proven to work! ie. get results ie. result in a positive change of life within people

 

There are some who say that in a modern world with technology and advertising marterials so avaliable to us... that the direct approach of stopping people on the street is over the top and not needed. They say that those who are interested will just turn up at church and so stopping 'everyone' on the street is nothing but intrusion. Let me tell you how wrong that is. It would be nice if everyone who was interested would just turn up at church! It would make it easier for everyone! But the fact is... it just doesn't work like that. My wife was stopped on the street by missionaries 3 years ago. She knew NOTHING about the church. She subsequently met with missionaries, who then taught her about the church and it's teachings and was baptised one year later. Simply put - without missionaries directly approaching her, she would not have come to know of the church and be baptised. Now I know those of you who are atheist will think it pointless. But you have to look at it from the believer's point of view and understand how they and I would see it. That is why missionary work still goes on.. because as believers, we see it as great importance, and as believers.... we know it works.

 

I hope that one day you will find it in your heart to at least reject the missionaries in a polite manner as they in like manner approach you. Please do not be offended. That is not their intention. They merely wish to offer you the chance of something they believe to be of vast importance. They are volunteering 2 years of their lives and contributing their savings towards it. They will not try to brainwash you or force their views on you. The are merely there to look for those who will receive the message as they themselves have done. In so doing.... they may come across you. What does that matter? Just say "no".

 

I apologise to those of you who have been offended by the actions of missionaries. I know that there are some who act inappropriately! or may be more pushy than they should. Please accept that that is merely down to the individual and not representative of the church as a whole. I know that some of these people are motivated by the wrong reasons - and for their behaviour towards you (if negative and inappropriate) I'm sorry. As a whole however, these young men and women will be polite and considerate.

 

One last thing - please excuse my waffle. It's getting late, I'm tired.... and i'm repeating myself. I tend to do that - sorry!!

 

btw. these young men in suits are far far less threatening than you think. In fact - presently, both are only still learning English (one is from Hungary, the other Austria) and so may fall silent in a debate of words!

[Albert Tatlock]

This topic has provided an oppurtunity for some of us to express our personal views on religion - which have clearly raised some tension and determination. None of us here will change our religious views and that is something each of us should accept and resepct. At the end of the day, our views on religion are personal to each of us and cannot, nor should not be determined by another - nor belittled for that matter!

Why should I accept, never mind respect, anything that dictates my and my families way of life - against our will? Religeon (especially US style v Islam) is currently affecting me directly in many ways that I detest e.g. the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, putting at risk thousands of people every day (including - directly - some of my friends and family), ID cards, Biometric passports, analysis of my finances, holding me up at airports, making people take my shoes off at airport security, and spending billions of pounds of tax payers money in the name of 'security'. These issues also dominate the news, taking away attention from far more deserving and progressive world issues. You offer me nothing but fear, threat and inconvenience - based on nothing but your ignorance. Your beliefs are as alien to me as omnipotent Squirrels. I do not wish to tolerate this, and have no respect for you and what you are doing to me.

 

You might turn around and say this has nothing to do with my religion, but the truth is it does, because George W Fukwit is leading it all, backed by your religious, poll rigged, ‘majority’.

 

I do understand that some people become offended by religious activity, but I contend that they are a minority within the community and should not be the voice of judgement. I have witnessed first hand the reaction of the public towards religion and I am happy in the knowledge that it is a minority that respond negatively. Not that people accept and rejoice in hearing the message (!) but that they who reject it, do so in an orderly manner ie. they say "no thankyou" and walk away. That's really all there is to it. There's no harm done! Just like a man asking for a donation towards his charity.. a woman asking for directions.. what happens in the scenario is one walks up to the other, and seeks their attention for a brief moment. When that moment passes.... the two people go their seperate ways - unharmed!

A poor attempt at saying ‘those capable of seeing you for what you really are’ don’t count.

 

You prey on the weak, the lonely, the repentant, the stupid and the inferior people in society (an ever increasing majority unfortunately) - who else would let you into their home otherwise? If I brought my children up telling them black was white and vice versa, and then pushed them out into the real world, would there be no harm done? You people don’t seem to see the harm you do by dividing people into sects, where of course, ‘God’ is suddenly on everyone’s side when it comes to them all fighting each other. The world has become divided by people like you, and you have put the human race thousands of years behind. Are you really saying that people accept and tolerate the horror in the world that religeon and people like you are causing?

 

The problem is that you people do not walk away when religeon is not accepted. You bomb, shoot and kill (American Fundamentalist or Islamic Fundamentalist). It doesn’t matter if it’s a suicide bomber or an F16, the end result is the same. You also try to take advantage of our past tolerance for minorities and free speech and hide behind it, without facing up to debate – but we’ve sussed you out. Do you really believe that Dubya's war on terror is not a religeous crusade i.e. Fundamentalist Christian v Fundamentalist Islam?

My wife was stopped on the street by missionaries 3 years ago. She knew NOTHING about the church. She subsequently met with missionaries, who then taught her about the church and it's teachings and was baptised one year later. Simply put - without missionaries directly approaching her, she would not have come to know of the church and be baptised. Now I know those of you who are atheist will think it pointless. But you have to look at it from the believer's point of view and understand how they and I would see it. That is why missionary work still goes on.. because as believers, we see it as great importance, and as believers.... we know it works.

So you met your wife through the church? So, a big club of gullible idiots, recruited two additional gullible idiots (who no doubt will breed) and then brainwash at least another two people into becoming gullible idiots, who will no doubt be introduced to another two gullible idiots to marry and carry on the good word... (that’s why religeon is analagous to a virus!). Don’t tell me – your wife is either a repentant sleeper-arounder, used to drink too much or had a tough time with her parents? Go on, be honest for once – which one?

and so may fall silent in a debate of words!

Happens to many people when they realise they’re talking bollocks

 

 

Sorry DjDan. Nothing personal, but I would happily shoot you tomorrow, as based on my experience, at some point in the future it will no doubt have saved at least 1000 innocent lives.

[DjDan]

Sorry DjDan. Nothing personal, but I would happily shoot you tomorrow, as based on my experience, at some point in the future it will no doubt have saved at least 1000 innocent lives.

 

 

I have to laugh Albert... you on the one hand complain about [religious] extremists, and then conclude in admiting that you hold extremist views yourself. In that sense... there is no difference between you and a muslim extremist - only that you are motivated by a different core 'belief'. You want to rid the world of believers, they want to rid the world of non-believers. Both you and they are radical in your views and ready to kill innocent people based on your own belief.

 

I suppose you believe some time in the future I will personally destroy 1000 innocent lives?? Nice one brother! I'm glad your kind is few in number on this island. Imagine the day when people are executed because of their belief! And people on this forum wish to vote you in as prime minister??

 

<-- guess i should never reveal my identity to you then! LOL

[DjDan]

So you met your wife through the church? So, a big club of gullible idiots, recruited two additional gullible idiots (who no doubt will breed) and then brainwash at least another two people into becoming gullible idiots, who will no doubt be introduced to another two gullible idiots to marry and carry on the good word... (that’s why religeon is analagous to a virus!). Don’t tell me – your wife is either a repentant sleeper-arounder, used to drink too much or had a tough time with her parents? Go on, be honest for once – which one?

 

May I summarise your words in concluding that you believe my wife to be a gullible idiot who in her past probably slept around, drank too much or had a tough time with her parents?

 

Mate, you become more and more ridiculous by the day.. and couldn't be further from the truth. My wife studied at university (in total) for 7 years. At the end of it all, she has attained a first degree in Biology, a Masters degree in public administration and a Masters degree in Bio-technology.

 

She now teaches Biology on the island at one of our high schools.

 

She is a gullible idiot?? I think she is far more educated, able and intelligent than most people on this forum. Her ambition is to attain a PhD which I have full confidence she will achieve.

 

YET - in your mind.... simply based on the fact that she believes in God... she must be a gullible idiot (with a dodgy past!)

 

Think that's all i need to say on the matter.

[Mr. Sausages]

What sort of gullible idiot studies biology? God makes life, and takes life. That's all you need to know. Praise Jesus, not science.

[molly]

IF there is a god, how does one justify resent events involving children both here and away. all these folk praying and such like does nothing to stop these things happening or heal the pain.

 

 

Its all bollocks.

 

AMEN