Juan Kerr Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Ignorance is bliss huh? Any other questions, I'll happily answer. I'd rather be ignorant than some knob who is being used by other people as a source of income. You may think this is about religion, but one day when you are older and wiser (if that is possible) you'll look back on these posts and realise what a total twat you've been to buy into this pretence. I have to say I have nothing against your religion, just your misplaced sense that you are 1) spreading good and saving souls and 2) not being used in some pyramid scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Any other questions, I'll happily answer. When was the world created, and how old is it? What evidence is there for the claims in the Book of Mormon, the existence of Moroni and the prophets of the western hemisphere. How does this evidence compare with archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the Western Hemisphere. Oh DjDan ... I don't want any web sites ... I want your opinion and thoughts thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 These people are morons I apologise. You were, in fact, mormons. I'm sorry I was one letter out. I thought they were the Life Church. My error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Ignorance is bliss huh? Any other questions, I'll happily answer. I'd rather be ignorant than some knob who is being used by other people as a source of income. You may think this is about religion, but one day when you are older and wiser (if that is possible) you'll look back on these posts and realise what a total twat you've been to buy into this pretence. I have to say I have nothing against your religion, just your misplaced sense that you are 1) spreading good and saving souls and 2) not being used in some pyramid scheme. How many times have I heard the "older and wiser" claim? lol. As if that were even true. I suppose the prophet and president of the church who is 96 yrs old is still too young and clueless?? Your opinion is your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 There has been a Mormon presence on the Island for many years. Im not aware they have done any harm to anyone or done anything to deserve vilification on an internet forum. To the best of my knowledge, the young "Brooks Brothers" clad missionaries make a considerable personal sacrifice to undertake a period of service to their church. Given their mission is benign they deserve the same level of respect we should give missionaries of any religion. Assuming DjDan is still reading the forum .. could you give us some information on the genealogy database maintained by the Mormon Church? Is it accessible to the public? Is it accessible on line? How does it benefit the Mormon Church? Is it continuously updated? Is there anything else you could tell prospective family ancestory researchers ? Many Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Any other questions, I'll happily answer. When was the world created, and how old is it? What evidence is there for the claims in the Book of Mormon, the existence of Moroni and the prophets of the western hemisphere. How does this evidence compare with archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the Western Hemisphere. Oh DjDan ... I don't want any web sites ... I want your opinion and thoughts thank you. You want me to answer your questions without any reference to websites? I admire your faith in me, but I'm hardly personally trained in archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the western hemisphere!! There is a website that will help answer the questions... but I'm not the author of it! The Book of Mormon stands as evidence for itself. It's complexity and diversity make it near impossible that a 14 year old could have created the whole scheme. The book of Alma chapter 36 offers a classic example of chiasmus - a poetic form of writing not known to have existed in the 1800's (therefore clearly unknown by Joseph Smith). The speech of King Benjamin (a king within the Book of Mormon) follows relative traditions of such from that era and culture in the manner in which it took place. In the very beginning of the book, it describes a journey through a desert around Israel (the specific place unknown). It descibes geographical occurances in the desert like places of water and vegetation, which have been proven to be the case.. which again were unknown in 1825. It also mentions the name of places which have been found to be actual local names from the region. The greatest evidence for the book of mormon is actually spiritual, but you won't believe that one anyway. But the fact that no one has managed to put forward a decent case to prove that the book of mormon was made up suggest something rather blatantly obvious. Have you read any part of the book of mormon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Kerr Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 You want me to answer your questions without any reference to websites? I admire your faith in me, but I'm hardly personally trained in archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the western hemisphere!! There is a website that will help answer the questions... but I'm not the author of it! I think Chinahands point was that those issues are some of the basic foundations of the Mormon Church. if you can't answer them you cannot have done much research on the basis for your whole religion. If you are not "personally trained in archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the western hemisphere" how can you claim that the basis of your religion is correct. Do they not teach that on the course you went on? (Please don't respond with more bullshit. opinions are opinions. Regurgitation is just regurgitation). edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Give the chap a break guys. I know he said he would take questions but perhaps he hadnt appreciated that would be an invitation to all and sundry on an internet forum. There are millions of proclaimed Catholics who couldnt answer basic questions about their religion. There are numerous Protestants who wouldnt be able to tell you the essential differences between their religions and the catholic religion. There are numerous Jews who are ignorant of the Torah and large numbers of Muslims who are unsure of the foundations of their religion. In the main we rely on experts such priests, vicars etc to translate and convey the meanings and messages of any particular religion. Granted a former missionary might be expected to have a better understanding than most about his or her religion. But we shouldnt expect such people to be experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Assuming DjDan is still reading the forum .. could you give us some information on the genealogy database maintained by the Mormon Church?Is it accessible to the public? Is it accessible on line? How does it benefit the Morman Church? Is it continuously updated? Is there anything else you could tell prospective family ancestory researchers ? Many Thanks in advance. Allow me to paste a text which I believe may help answer some of the questions: The Church has one of the largest genealogical libraries in the world. Under the direction of its Family History Department, the Church and its members have gathered millions of volumes of birth, marriage, death, and other records. Today hundreds of millions of microfilmed records are available for research. The library is open to the public and is situated adjacent to historic Temple Square in downtown Salt lake City, Utah. In addition, there are hundreds of family history centers throughout the world. Copies of the records are stored in a spacious vault carved out of a solid granite mountain in a canyon near Salt Lake City. This massive cavern permanently safeguards these valuable records from natural disaster and preserves them under ideal storage conditions. To appreciate the Church's emphasis on genealogy, it is necessary to understand the importance of the family in the lives of Latter-day Saints. Mormons who obey the teachings of Christ may enter into a marriage covenant that lasts not only until death, but continues eternally. These eternal marriages are solemnized in the temples of the Church. In addition, the Church teaches that those who have died without a true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ may be baptized in a temple (see "Temples") by proxy. Proxy temple work, including baptism and marriage, opens the way for people who have died without a full knowledge of the gospel to accept the gospel's saving principles and to participate in its necessary ordinances. The living gather vital statistics on their ancestors so that the dead can have all the blessings of the gospel. [My comment: see 1 Cor. 15:29, 1 Peter 3:18, 19, and 1 Peter 4:6.] The local church on the island has a small family history centre which is open to the public. You can use the computers there to better your family research. Family History benefits the church in two main ways. One, it helps individuals (probably like yourself) who are interested in family history to have the necessary documents avaliable to them for their research. Two, we believe in the church that in order for a man/woman to return to the presence of God, certain actions must take place. 1. One must accept the message of Christ 2. Repent and be baptised in his name. That being the case, logically, we are faced with a problem. What happens to all those who have died without ever hearing the message or having a chance to be baptised? We believe that when we die (and our spirits are seperated from our bodies) our spirits go to a place we refer to as a 'spirit world' to await the resurrection (which takes place at the second coming of Christ). We believe that during this time in waiting, the spirits there are given a chance to hear and accept Christ as their Saviour. Those who at that time choose to accept his sacrifice and teachings are still left without one thing - Baptism. We believe that a person here on earth can be baptised in the name and place of one who has died. NOT therefore 'forcing' people into the church... but doing that essential work for them here so that IF they then accept the teachings in the spirit world, there is nothing then holding them back. Am I confusing you? Probably.. but if you are a chrisitan, you may be familiar with the scripture in 1 Cor. 15:29 which talks of Baptisms for the dead. Why then does the church need names of ancestors? So that this work can be done. A member may find the name of a deceased grandfather and then take his name to the temple (where this special work is done) and be baptised in his name or on his behalf in the hope that that grandfather will accept the gospel message in the spirit world. It's kinda complicated I guess and I'm probably not explaining it very well. But I hope this gives you an idea of why family history is so important to the church. We believe that an essential work needs to be done for all those who have died. For your personal use, if you are interested in your own family history, you can use the computers at our local church, or try using this site: http://www.familysearch.org/ I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to family history being honest. My Parents have completed 4 generations on both sides of the family... and I guess I kinda left it up to them! If you have any further questions though, I could get the answers for you.. my father knows a lot more than myself on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 the truth of mormon beliefs = oxymoron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 the truth of mormon beliefs = oxymoron Im surprised at you thiewin. As a lawyer you, more than anyone, should appreciate "truth" is an entirely subjective take on facts. If you want objective evidence for this insight take the time to witness some court proceedings and, in particular, listen to the twisted logic applied by advocates to arrive at their own version of the "truth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 You want me to answer your questions without any reference to websites? I admire your faith in me, but I'm hardly personally trained in archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the western hemisphere!! There is a website that will help answer the questions... but I'm not the author of it! I think Chinahands point was that those issues are some of the basic foundations of the Mormon Church. if you can't answer them you cannot have done much research on the basis for your whole religion. If you are not "personally trained in archeological, genetic and cultural traditions of the western hemisphere" how can you claim that the basis of your religion is correct. Do they not teach that on the course you went on? (Please don't respond with more bullshit. opinions are opinions. Regurgitation is just regurgitation). edit: spelling You must understand that Christianity is based on faith and spiritual matters.... not necessarily physical evidence. God himself does not convince by force and evidence that he exists. We believe that he expects us to develop our spirituality through prayer and scripture study etc. and relying on the holy spirit. Now I have read much into the subject of evidences on the book of mormon because it interests me but there is soo much detail on the subject that I cannot recite it all to you. I know some few points, but i leave the rest to the experts. In the church we don't teach the "physical evidences" because that is not what the church is about. We believe through faith and spiritual experiences. BUT if you are really interested in the evidence... you can read through http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml I do know the basics and more of my church... but evidences and such for my beliefs do not hold a great emthasis in my life. It is not the physical that builds a believer but the spiritual. Just as in reading the evidences, at the end it may make no difference to you... because that's the way with physical things. People interpret in their own way... but with the spiritual, it is a whole lot more convincing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 You haven't answered my question on the age of the earth DjDan. I would be intrigued by your answer because I suspect it will go to the heart of what you are saying. When different claims contradict each other, you then have to assess them. You have 2 claims, two sets of belief, being presented to you and you have to find away to decide which is a more rational belief to hold. I deliberately use the word rational here for how else can you evaluate things? If you are going to say you hold an irrational belief and nothing is going to change that belief ... then fine, but do not be surprised when people say your arguments are not going to convince them. Yes all religious people have faith, but that faith is upheld by their rationalizations of those beliefs against counter claims which contradict their beliefs. I would like to hear your rationalizations about what we know about the world and especially the age of the earth and the cultures of PreColumbian America. You cannot be a Mormon without having very strong and very unusual beliefs about these things. You've given some details on the book of Mormon ... give us some on the other questions I've asked you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I think most if not all religions are vulnerable to the charge of irrational beliefs. One famous example regards the Catholic rebuttal of evolution. This was somewhat belatedly corrected by John Paul in 1999. Change to Catholic Beliefs The "Papal Enlightenment" was a sensible revision of belief although it raised questions about a previous Pope's infallibility. I dont believe the oft quoted Mormon belief in a 6,000 year old earth is any different to the irrational beliefs of any other religion. ie: its open to change and revision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 You haven't answered my question on the age of the earth DjDan. I would be intrigued by your answer because I suspect it will go to the heart of what you are saying. You've given some details on the book of Mormon ... give us some on the other questions I've asked you. I don't have an answer on the age of the earth. No one knows how old the earth is, and there is no doctrine taught on the subject. The church has no official standpoint. As for the other questions about Moroni and other prophets, again, no evidence can be given. It is hard to provide evidence for an individual within an ancient civilisation. If the book of Mormon is a true account, then Moroni was a real man.... but I guess that's all there is to it. Have you read any of the Book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.