Call For Work Permit System To Change

[Albert Tatlock]

According to MR: "A member of the work permit committee says the current system doesn’t work and needs radical change. Speaking on Manx Radio earlier, Carol Jempson said the way work permits are granted doesn’t adequately consider whether local workers could do a particular job. She says this gives employers a way of bringing people into the Island to do jobs which could be filled locally if suitable strategies were adopted. Mrs Jempson is now calling for changes to both the work permit system and our immigration policy."

 

I agree. The system has been abused for years and does need radical reform to protect locals...and before you newly arrived comeovers get on the 'oooh not me' bandwagon - don't forget that in 10-15 years time it might be protecting your offspring, as well as protecting what's left of the islands culture.

 

I'm suprised that immigration hasn't become one of the dominant election topics. But given the calibre of candidates we have so far, is that any real surprise?

[LoneWolf]

I have never really understood the thinking behind Control of Employment legislation.

Why do local workers need protection of this sort?

Do we lack capability to the extent we are scared of healthy competition for jobs? I think not.

Local people, in my opinion, are equal to people from any other location.

If, on the other hand, there is evidence Manx people are being discriminated against in the job market we need to make sure legislation exists to make sure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip.

Control of Employment? Im afraid I cant grasp the logic.

[Politician]

Could Mrs Jempson's sudden high profile on this emotive issue possibly be connected to her candidature for Liberal Vannin in Douglas East?

[Albert Tatlock]

I have never really understood the thinking behind Control of Employment legislation.

Why do local workers need protection of this sort?

Do we lack capability to the extent we are scared of healthy competition for jobs? I think not.

Local people, in my opinion, are equal to people from any other location.

If, on the other hand, there is evidence Manx people are being discriminated against in the job market we need to make sure legislation exists to make sure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip.

Control of Employment? Im afraid I cant grasp the logic.

Well put it this way...if 40,000 Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians arrived saying "we'll do your jobs for half the money", and all the employers said "OK then!" we'd all be out of a job.

 

We wouldn't all be able to go 30 miles down the road for another job, as there are no run off areas here on the island like there are in England. Once the locals have gone, so has the culture. The reality is that no one wants to fully control employment law to the Nth degree, but to simply ensure that the economy takes into account the islands culture, by not diluting it's native population.

 

Do you think there should be uncontrolled immigration from the EU into the UK, or some controls? It's the same argument.

[LoneWolf]

No problem with what you are saying Albert, except I would argue if we are really seeking to control immigration then we should have legislation which addresses that directly.

I still think those of us born on the Island can hold our own against anyone in the job market and dont really see the need for control of employment.

Controlled immigration is something different and clearly needs to be faced up to in an open and fair handed manner.

[Albert Tatlock]

No problem with what you are saying Albert, except I would argue if we are really seeking to control immigration then we should have legislation which addresses that directly.

I still think those of us born on the Island can hold our own against anyone in the job market and dont really see the need for control of employment.

Controlled immigration is something different and clearly needs to be faced up to in an open and fair handed manner.

90% of those arriving here have to get a job, and the best way to tackle this majority and protect the islands culture (given no immigration legislation) has been via the work permit system.

 

Agreed that we need legislation to cover all aspects of immigration e.g people retiring here (not paid into the system, avoiding UK inheritance tax, taking up hospital beds etc.), as well as e.g. those that are rich enough not to work (perhaps ensuring that they invest in the local economy, as is done in other countries as a prerequisite).

[LoneWolf]

No problem with what you are saying Albert, except I would argue if we are really seeking to control immigration then we should have legislation which addresses that directly.

I still think those of us born on the Island can hold our own against anyone in the job market and dont really see the need for control of employment.

Controlled immigration is something different and clearly needs to be faced up to in an open and fair handed manner.

90% of those arriving here have to get a job, and the best way to tackle this majority and protect the islands culture (given no immigration legislation) has been via the work permit system.

 

Agreed that we need legislation to cover all aspects of immigration e.g people retiring here (not paid into the system, avoiding UK inheritance tax, taking up hospital beds etc.), as well as e.g. those that are rich enough not to work (perhaps ensuring that they invest in the local economy, as is done in other countries as a prerequisite).

 

A national debate on the subject? Seems overdue to me as we need a consensus if any attempt to introduce controls is to stand any chance of success. [Yes I know it smacks of Jim Callaghan]

[Celt]

I don't think the the major problem has been with the Work Permit system in the past but the enforcement off it has always been the shady side off it. In my 30yrs in the Construction Industry in cannot think off one Company being taken to court over employing someone without a permit.

 

I think it needs sorting out so as to take the loop holes and all the uncertanties out off it and become more workable. I think it was brought in initially to protect local workers during the winter slump when we had a tourist trade, i you can remember that far back.

 

 

Well put it this way...if 40,000 Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians arrived saying "we'll do your jobs for half the money", and all the employers said "OK then!" we'd all be out of a job.

 

Considering that Dandara were the first with loads of supposed tradesmen from Ireland when they started building FarmHill, maybe they set the trend. But as most of the Tradesmen who lost work becuase of it and the ones now, are/were Self_Employed that is how they get/got away with it.

 

Also if your not born here then you're " Jonny Foreigner " so what difference does it make where you come from? But people are qiute happy, and lots do, to work for " Jonny Foreigner " so it seems to be OK to take the money off them.

 

The people who move here to work, no matter where from, can only get a job if a Local firm gives them one. They can also only be paid a lesser wage if it is paid to them by a Local firm.

 

As for getting paid half the wage of the local, far from it. In fact most of our european friends walk away with a damm sight more than the locals due to the fact they work all the hours god sends and do a damm good job and are reliable.

 

Basicly, the only people who use, abuse and cheat the present permit system is Local Firms or large Government Contract holders. So we should look at them first, imo, before shouting about who gets issued with them. Maybe then we can see what needs to be changed.

[Albert Tatlock]

Well put it this way...if 40,000 Poles, Bulgarians and Romanians arrived saying "we'll do your jobs for half the money", and all the employers said "OK then!" we'd all be out of a job.

 

As for getting paid half the wage of the local, far from it. In fact most of our european friends walk away with a damm sight more than the locals due to the fact they work all the hours god sends and do a damm good job and are reliable.

From the BBC "Perhaps most fascinating is the fact that a quarter of the Poles we surveyed are earning below the £5.05 minimum wage for adults over 22."

 

With such high numbers (>600,000) coming into the UK (and eventually the island) it will surely only be a matter of time. When did anyone on here who works in a bar or a shop last get a pay rise? This will be applicable to many more of us soon - wait and see.

[LoneWolf]

This will be applicable to many more of us soon - wait and see.

 

My God Albert please stop it. You are so pessimistic !!

Its beginning to get infectious, now Im feeling pessimistic as well.

[Albert Tatlock]

My God Albert please stop it. You are so pessimistic !!

Realistic! Open your eyes - it is actually happening. Which is why I am a fervant supporter of IOM immigration legislation. Without it we will lose our culture, our standard of life, our standard of living, as well as having to cater for a lot of people running away from the very same (already happening at a much faster pace) in the UK.

[germann]

The work permit system needs to be changed to protect locals, but also to protect non-residents from being exploited.

 

Most of the Poles I know on the island have both day and evening jobs with local employers to make up for the shortfall in their wages, as their local landlords charge high rents.

 

Many of them have come to the IoM after working in the UK and Ireland, but have decided to stay because they love our culture!

 

The way forward as far as I see it is that there should be a snitchline and advice service set up to report employers who pay below the minimum wage. At the moment nobody is benefitting from the influx of hard-working immigrants other than the ruthless fuckers lining their pockets with cheap hard graft.

 

If the wages of immigrants are the same as the locals then it would go some way to levelling the employment playing field for all of us.

 

people retiring here (not paid into the system, avoiding UK inheritance tax, taking up hospital beds etc.), as well as e.g. those that are rich enough not to work (perhaps ensuring that they invest in the local economy, as is done in other countries as a prerequisite).

 

Couldn't agree more. I strongly believe that this is the real immigation issue. The island is awash with elderly Brits who do nothing but push up house prices, drive slowly and delay our flights back and forth from their homeland by being carried on and off planes in their wheelchairs. Simple solution: they should be allowed to retire to the Island, and enjoy its relative safety, beautiful landscape and quirky locals, but if they haven't worked for more than, say, 5 years on the Isle of Man, then they should be liable to the same 'kick the bucket taxes' as where they came from.

 

It would be a win-win-win situation: the health service would be better off, housing stock would be released, and there would be more tax revenue. And I'm sure half of them would be happier in Bournemouth or Newquay anyway.

[Albert Tatlock]

The work permit system needs to be changed to protect locals, but also to protect non-residents from being exploited.

 

Most of the Poles I know on the island have both day and evening jobs with local employers to make up for the shortfall in their wages, as their local landlords charge high rents.

 

Many of them have come to the IoM after working in the UK and Ireland, but have decided to stay because they love our culture!

 

The way forward as far as I see it is that there should be a snitchline and advice service set up to report employers who pay below the minimum wage. At the moment nobody is benefitting from the influx of hard-working immigrants other than the ruthless fuckers lining their pockets with cheap hard graft.

 

If the wages of immigrants are the same as the locals then it would go some way to levelling the employment playing field for all of us.

I agree entirely. I have nothing against foreigners, (as I have said in other posts I have lived and worked in Europe) and think many foreigners are worth far more than most Brits these days (in terms of standards, work ethic, integrity and general behaviour).

 

There are 'snitch lines': the work permit office, the DTI and any MHK worth his salt. Once people start getting away with employing beneath the minimum wage they commit an offence, as well as undermine us all.

 

Don't confuse a desire for immigration legislation as Xenophobia (the Fear of Foreigners). However, we have to get the balance right to protect the culture that everyone (visitors alike) seem so proud of.

[germann]

Don't confuse a desire for immigration legislation as Xenophobia (the Fear of Foreigners). However, we have to get the balance right to protect the culture that everyone (visitors alike) seem so proud of.

 

 

I don't I think you have raised some very good points.

[manxman8180]

I'm suprised that immigration hasn't become one of the dominant election topics. But given the calibre of candidates we have so far, is that any real surprise?

Albert, I think the word 'immigration' has indeed become one of the hot topics that every candidate feels they must inlcude. However, you're quite right that the claibre of the candidates seems to be such that they are incapable of offering up realistic debate on the subject.

 

The Work Permit system is a poor way of controlling immigration, and although they should be viewed seperately, it is fair to say that people do see the WP system as the way in which Govt controls who comes into the Island. But as we all know, a job spec can easily be geared towards a preferred applicant if necessary, and anyone with a bit of nouse will always be able to 'abuse' the system.

 

The problem I have with the likes of Liberal Vannin and others, is that they propose little in the way of solving the issue. Yesterday, Mrs Jempson mentioned a 'points' system like Australia and the like, however, she failed to expand on the details and the likely implications of introducing border controls and the affect of our position with 'free movement' within the EEA etc.