Call For Work Permit System To Change

[Lonan3]

An example of the way in which the work permit system can be misused/abused was contained in THIS THREAD but it was largely ignored. This was an example of the DTI - the department responsible for issuing them - failing to keep check on one of it's own major projects, a failure that was later dismissed by the minister in charge by a statement that there were bound to be problems on such a large project but, hey, it's built now and running okay so why worry!

I agree with Albert, the system is not working and it needs to be tightened up drastically.

[Celt]

The work permit system needs to be changed to protect locals, but also to protect non-residents from being exploited.

 

I think the WP system should be changed for exactly the above reason and also the DTI should do their job properly and control it. The should be Prosercutions for Companies/Fims who don't follow the rules and the same for ones who pay below minimum wage.

 

 

I strongly believe that this is the real immigation issue. The island is awash with elderly Brits who do nothing but push up house prices, drive slowly and delay our flights back and forth from their homeland by being carried on and off planes in their wheelchairs. Simple solution: they should be allowed to retire to the Island, and enjoy its relative safety, beautiful landscape and quirky locals, but if they haven't worked for more than, say, 5 years on the Isle of Man, then they should be liable to the same 'kick the bucket taxes' as where they came from.

 

I think Immigration should be changed or brought in as the above qoute is a major factor. Might be a bit harsh to think this way but the above type of people recieve every benifit the Island has to offer whilst giving nothing at all in return.

 

Imo, the Work Permit system should and could work alongside any Immigration policy set in place. It should compliment it not replace it.

[Charles Flynn]

I'm suprised that immigration hasn't become one of the dominant election topics. But given the calibre of candidates we have so far, is that any real surprise?

 

 

Well we should have changed the election rules and allowed better qualified candidates from across to stand without waiting five years if indeed the locals are not up to it! Ensure however they do not come from countries which are noted for terrorists. We have enough problems without that.

 

The rules in Australia are very complicated and are certainly open to abuse by those administering the scheme. It looks like another consultancy exercise will need to be commissioned as undoubtedly our politicians will be unable to come up with a solution by themselves.

[Chinahand]

I don't know what to make of this.

 

The Island has a massive shortage of skilled workers and craftsman.

 

As far as I'm aware a plasterer working at the Prison can demand and get as much as £25 per hour. Both the manufacturing and finance sectors are having trouble recruiting the talent they need and have to pay a premium to get them.

 

The lack of workers is pushing up wages on the Island and seriously distorting the market.

 

The Chamber of Commerce is warning of very real difficulties if the system isn't reformed, CLICKY. Talented people who would be a real benefit to the Island are having difficulty getting work permits.

 

But all I am hearing here is a demand to restrict people coming to the Island. Its just plain nuts.

 

The Island needs talented people to help it grow. We should be welcoming them, not grumbling about non existent labour surpluses driving down wages.

[manxman8180]

And there we have both sides of the coin.

[Theskeat]

Once the IOM have signed up to the Human Rights Act, the work permit system is out the window, the Act protects workers from other countries under the rights to work and maintain thyself without the help of a state.

 

The DTI work Permit rules state that in order to gain employment the applicant must first prove to the DTI that they are apprentice trained and fully qualified and must obtain DTI Registration of Craftsmen certificate prior to application for a work permit.

 

This only applies if you a local company and normally takes about 3/4 weeks, outside firms get arround this very quickly Loopholes again.

 

Government Departments are employing contractors from off Island directly and abusing their own rules.

[Albert Tatlock]

I don't know what to make of this.

 

The Island has a massive shortage of skilled workers and craftsman.

 

As far as I'm aware a plasterer working at the Prison can demand and get as much as £25 per hour. Both the manufacturing and finance sectors are having trouble recruiting the talent they need and have to pay a premium to get them.

 

The lack of workers is pushing up wages on the Island and seriously distorting the market.

 

The Chamber of Commerce is warning of very real difficulties if the system isn't reformed, CLICKY. Talented people who would be a real benefit to the Island are having difficulty getting work permits.

 

But all I am hearing here is a demand to restrict people coming to the Island. Its just plain nuts.

 

The Island needs talented people to help it grow. We should be welcoming them, not grumbling about non existent labour surpluses driving down wages.

And there we have both sides of the coin.

From that article there is a solution: 'However if the correct balance is not achieved there is a danger that this objective can actually result in a net loss of jobs to the Isle of Man. The system needs to be reviewed to ensure it truly 'balances the needs of employers with those of available Manx workers' and with the overall needs of the Isle of Man."

 

In other words, it is about getting the balance right.

 

I think it would be foolish to base immigration legislation solely on numbers. In consultation with the major employers, such legislation (or a reform of the WPS), would need to consider:

 

1. That skilled manx workers are not being held back by immigrants i.e. more in depth analysis of why a manx worker was not chosen for the post. This is particularly important for identifying training needs on the island. There has to be a lot of trust placed on employers for this, but without greater analysis and reacting to the feedback the situation will never change, and confidence in the WPS will only wain further.

2. Much closer ties with industry and the college to ensure that academic and specific training courses are more closely aligned with the needs of business. Easy to say, harder to achieve, and I think we have only paid lip service to this so far. We need some high calibre individuals to do this.

3. Financial rewards (through better tax breaks) for companies employing manx workers i.e. you cannot expect companies to have to do this without some incentive. This would also allow them to justify their action to distant head offices etc.

4. A realisation that there will be manx people with the same qualifications, but who lack the depth of experience. Again, a financial incentive to employ manx workers may over time encourage more of those companies to provide that experience.

5. Greater analysis of the award of contracts to external companies, and perhaps whether larger contracts can be broken down into smaller chunks. In other words why are there seemingly companies on the island not capable of carrying out much of the infrastructure work that needs to be done on the island?

6. Make resources available to police the WPS.

7. Lots of other reasons. This is a very complex area, and certainly needs to become a much wider debate.

 

I wish someone (one of the candidates) would grasp this nettle. Taking the angle that such legislation could be used to benefit both employers, manx workers and for everyone else the culture of the island - would be popular IMHO.

[John Wright]

This is a real thorny one.

 

First there have been numerous prosecutions of both workers and employers.

 

Second Work Permits are not in any way related to immigration control or population control, although both of those may have an effect on the labour market.

 

Work Permits force an employer to take a person who may not necessarily be the best person for the job on the basis of birth or residence and protect not so good members of the work force because of their palvce of birth and or length of residence.

 

The current work permit syestem has to be one of the first targets of a human rights application after 1st November. The whole stystem may not be non compliant, but much of it is .

 

Under Human Rights there is no freedom of movement of people and labour and under protocol 3 we maintain the right to regulate all EU citizens, including those of UK, in their ability to work here. In exchange a few Manx men and womwen have no right to set up and work in the EU.

 

This is not about moving and living or retiring and not working, there is complete fredom for that.

 

Should any employer be forced to take on soeone who is suitabel if there is someone better for the job?

 

Wouldn't it be better if Manx workers gained the necessary experience so that they were the best for the job. If they were they would not need sheltering.

 

Why do we think they are so incompetent they need sheltering, Seems to me its a bit of an inferiority complex somewhere.

 

Work Permits will fail the HR test because they are highly discriminatory.

 

You don't need a permit to be a policeman, doctor dentist, judge, minister of religion, the governor, to work on an airplane or boat to and from the IOM, if you are acommercial traveller, here for less than 3 days,or for other temporary employment for more than 3 days, say being a licensed temporary advocate, however long the case goes on for or an actor, make up artist, lighting engineer, extra whose job is cultural.

 

Lots of exemptions. They aren't fair. All or nothing.

 

A population limit will not protect Manx Workers. Nor will it protect consumers if there is a shortage of tradesman. That is what minimum wage rates are all about.

 

At present work permits protect incompetents and keep out the better qualified

 

Sounds a bit like the same proposition we are faced with in our chice of candidates for the Keys just now.

[5-demerits]

Once the IOM have signed up to the Human Rights Act, the work permit system is out the window, the Act protects workers from other countries under the rights to work and maintain thyself without the help of a state.

 

The DTI work Permit rules state that in order to gain employment the applicant must first prove to the DTI that they are apprentice trained and fully qualified and must obtain DTI Registration of Craftsmen certificate prior to application for a work permit.

 

This only applies if you a local company and normally takes about 3/4 weeks, outside firms get arround this very quickly Loopholes again.

 

Government Departments are employing contractors from off Island directly and abusing their own rules.

 

The statements you make are not correct (what a surprise). Firstly the work permit system covers all workers and not just those employed in the construction industry.

 

In relation to the construction industry the certification of craftsmen refers only to specific trades, not specialist trades or trades not listed in the certification scheme. You do not have to show that you have completed an apprenticeship, you only have to show that you are qualified to carry out the work, an apprenticeship is only one of the routes to qualification.

 

If the Government are employing contractors (within the construction industry) from off island and they are not approved contactors you should make an official complaint to the DTI. I doubt very much that is the case which will be evidenced by the non action of the DTI with regards your previous complaint to your friend Peter.

 

At present work permits protect incompetents and keep out the better qualified

 

Above statement seems to cover previous quoted poster amply.

[CaptainBob]

According to MR: "A member of the work permit committee says the current system doesn’t work and needs radical change. Speaking on Manx Radio earlier, Carol Jempson said the way work permits are granted doesn’t adequately consider whether local workers could do a particular job. She says this gives employers a way of bringing people into the Island to do jobs which could be filled locally if suitable strategies were adopted. Mrs Jempson is now calling for changes to both the work permit system and our immigration policy."

 

I agree. The system has been abused for years and does need radical reform to protect locals...and before you newly arrived comeovers get on the 'oooh not me' bandwagon - don't forget that in 10-15 years time it might be protecting your offspring, as well as protecting what's left of the islands culture.

 

I'm suprised that immigration hasn't become one of the dominant election topics. But given the calibre of candidates we have so far, is that any real surprise?

 

The EEC is a great idea. We break down national boundaries and the only thing that separates us is us... who we are, and what we can do for society. One day there might be a world where we don't have visas, and permits, and tariff barriers, and national interests (to be a bit Lennoneque maybe no wars or religeons either).

[Celt]

Once the IOM have signed up to the Human Rights Act, the work permit system is out the window, the Act protects workers from other countries under the rights to work and maintain thyself without the help of a state.

 

The DTI work Permit rules state that in order to gain employment the applicant must first prove to the DTI that they are apprentice trained and fully qualified and must obtain DTI Registration of Craftsmen certificate prior to application for a work permit.

 

This only applies if you a local company and normally takes about 3/4 weeks, outside firms get arround this very quickly Loopholes again.

 

Government Departments are employing contractors from off Island directly and abusing their own rules.

 

The statements you make are not correct (what a surprise). Firstly the work permit system covers all workers and not just those employed in the construction industry.

 

In relation to the construction industry the certification of craftsmen refers only to specific trades, not specialist trades or trades not listed in the certification scheme. You do not have to show that you have completed an apprenticeship, you only have to show that you are qualified to carry out the work, an apprenticeship is only one of the routes to qualification.

 

If the Government are employing contractors (within the construction industry) from off island and they are not approved contactors you should make an official complaint to the DTI. I doubt very much that is the case which will be evidenced by the non action of the DTI with regards your previous complaint to your friend Peter.

 

At present work permits protect incompetents and keep out the better qualified

 

Above statement seems to cover previous quoted poster amply.

 

 

First class reply,imo. At the mo, you have to have all the credentials in place if you come to the IOM and want to work in the Construction Industry but if you're Local, all you need to do is take a crappy Trades Test with the DTI. Is that right?

 

I've seen guys who 6 months ago were posties, mechanics and such, suddenly state they're Joiners,. Feck off.

 

I served 4 yrs and the 3 yrs off night school and then i'm still learning. So whats this shoite Trade Test all about as apart from putting unskilled labour into the system to cover the deficite of Tradesmen.

 

But then I do know of a man who started out as an apprentice at Dowty's, left and started to do Painting and Decorating, with no Apprenticeship, and now runs his own company. But now whinges like fuck about un-skilled tradesmen and contracts which go to firms who have skilled trades. Ironic really.

[Albert Tatlock]

The majority of recent comments reflect how the Work Permit System (WPS) is not currently working, cover people's perceived rights within the system, and the failure of the current system to address those issues and rights as well as support the further development of the economy.

 

I think we need to take stock and address the fundamental purpose of the Work Permit System and what, and perhaps most important WHY, we need to do to put things right and how we should go about it.

 

To understand the basis of the Work Permit System, you have to go back quite a few years, to an island whose main source of income was it's beauty, heritage and it's people i.e. the basis of it's culture. In other words to the original creators and custodians of the factors and way of life on the island – the remnants of the culture which the majority of us say we care about so much and enjoy today. Previously, the island made a living out of holiday makers, it's fishing industry and not much more. Its laws, customs, and behaviour lagged 20 years behind the UK, people could leave their front doors open and their cars unlocked, and there was rarely any trouble – unlike the UK that was changing dramatically. How else do you think the island evolved such factors in the first place?

 

And then in the 1970s things began to change. People stopped coming to the island, and many Manx workers were forced to seek work on the UK mainland or further afield in order to survive, just as they had been forced to do so when times were lean in the 50s. In the 70s the island was going downhill rapidly, the impact of UK recessions multiplied on the island, and so something had to be done. Hence through the benefits of having its own government came the evolution of the finance sector, the requirement for it to be staffed, and the various businesses to grow alongside to support both - for which the vast majority of people on the island (directly or indirectly) work today.

 

As a result of merging its culture and a healthy economy, the island now has the same attraction to people as the 60s based series 'Heartbeat' has to many Brits today i.e. much of that attraction is based on nostalgia and the desire of many people from the UK who come here to ‘turn back the clock’, have a better quality of life, and get paid well for doing so. But how are we to protect those factors now?

 

Both before, and as the finance sector evolved, promises were made to Manx residents regarding the number of people coming to the island and the desire to protect the islands culture and people – the underlying basic principles of the Work Permit System. Without some form of protection, Manx people would not be capable of working in this new industry. Without such protection the island would have now become swamped with new immigrants, in much the same way as Israel has swamped Palestine, as ethnic minorities have swamped Birmingham and other UK cities – eventually taking them over and (rightly or wrongly) altering their culture forever, at the expense of the locals.

 

This expansion of the islands economy has resulted in the formation of four basic camps: 'the free marketeers', 'the cuturalists', 'the cultural marketeers' and the 'out for myself brigade'.

 

A side-effect of capitalism is that the bulk of employers (companies) tend to be 'the free marketeers', whilst a great many older residents (to many of whom the finance sector is an alien culture), as well as a few die hard Mec Vannin supporters, form the bulk of 'the cuturalists'. The vast majority, those people who choose to live and work on the island, who understand and have a great many friends in the finance sector, who are bringing up families and want to enjoy the island and its way of life and earn a decent living, form 'the cultural marketeers' group - i.e. those who want the best of both worlds. The 'out for myself brigade' tend to be mostly itinerant workers, though some have settled here. I believe most of us would like to think we are 'cultural marketeers', I know I consider myself part of that group. All this with an island economy with 42% of GDP from the finance sector (with probably 30% of other sectors relying on it for income).

 

The problem is that left unopposed the 'free marketeers' will end up destroying the culture by expanding and bringing in the cheapest possible labour from other cultures diluting Manx culture, as well as bringing in many of the ‘out for myself brigade’ and other ‘undesirables’, 'the cuturalists' will hold the island back, and the 'out for myself brigade' will take their money and run with no cares. On that basis it is essential that we get the balance right for ‘the cultural marketeers’.

 

We all know the Work Permit System is totally lacking in any credibility and is indeed in need of substantial overhaul, and suspect it will require associated legislation. We have no right to be racist, but we do have the right to say who lives here and under what terms and conditions, and that those terms and conditions support our culture (when in Rome...and all that). On an island that has limited space, we all know that we want the right people to live and work here to support ‘Manx cultural marketeering’.

 

That is why we need an urgent and well thought out debate on this topic, perhaps packaged as an 'immigration policy', or possibly less argumentatively, as some kind of 'heritage' policy that links economic strategy, employment, generic immigration (including taxation for non-workers), as well as all of the other associated and important issues that have been identified in this thread.

 

Failure to do so will lead to a further, perhaps irretrievable, dilution of Manx culture and values, and to the disappearance of the quality of life we all profess to protect. There are already many things happening on the island e.g. crime, behavioural standards etc. that indicate we are well on the way to losing many of these factors.

 

Today the UK announced restrictions on unskilled Bulgarians and Romanians working in the UK - with certain employment categories to be exempt or assessed. Is that racist? I don't think so, I think it is the same commonsense measure to protect its residents and its infrastructure that we need to apply to people coming to the island.

 

All we need is for our elected representatives and prospective candidates to start doing something now, before it's too late.

[suzook]

the isle of man, should be relatively easy to police for immigration controls, which i really hope for one they put in sooner rather than later!!

 

im sure the amount of illegal workers etc in the isle of man has increased more than general populace is aware off.

[Cronky]

I have been reading varoius internet forums for about ten years now. Every once in a while someone hits the nail on the head. In my view, Mr Tatlock's comments are very insightful and accurate.

 

The issue is culture.

 

Culture is not something you can impose - it is created from within. The key thing that helped us to settle quickly was the friendliness of local Manx people. We were amazed frankly. Had we moved to another island (Isle of Wight, Anglesea, Islay, Harris etc) I doubt we would have been so well received. Not least we would have still been subject to the crushing policies of the New Labour 'controlled state'. Culture in the Isle of Man is not about the Gaeity theatre, the museums, the steam railway or even the TT. It is about how the local community hums. To integrate you have to follow the local lead and join in. The Isle of Man is all our children know. They will grow up in the Manx culture and we will encourage them all the way.

 

It seems to me that the the Government is adept at keeping out the bad aspects of change in the UK. Many aspects of this are quite subtle and effective. Not least is the different approach to policing and the 'hands off' relationship between the Department of Education and the local schools.

 

One aspect is very subtle and important. You don't have the right to call yourself Manx unless you have been here for a really long time. This Island belongs to the people who came here in longboats and set up the Parliament. Their descendents own the culture and, in my view, have every right to have the final say in the Islands's direction.

 

The UK has been ruined culturally. Too much immigration, dreadful government and hard nosed big business. If you live there you have to deal with it and it's not pleasant.

 

The Manx culture must drive the change. It's not all about money. The indiginous population have been very canny at getting people to integrate. However, if the numbers of Manx people dwindle too far then things may change too much and the charm could wane.

 

I hope that the next Government handles this situation effectively without being divisive. I'm voting Manx.

[manxman8180]

First class reply,imo. At the mo, you have to have all the credentials in place if you come to the IOM and want to work in the Construction Industry but if you're Local, all you need to do is take a crappy Trades Test with the DTI. Is that right?

It's definitely not right. But then again, it isn't correct either, so I don't know where that leaves you really.

 

I've seen guys who 6 months ago were posties, mechanics and such, suddenly state they're Joiners,. Feck off.

Unfortunately, anyone can call themselves anything they want. Maybe the compulsory registration of all skilled workers is the answer? At the moment you only have to register if you are required to do so for WP registration or if you wish to work for companies on the 'Approved List'

 

But then I do know of a man who started out as an apprentice at Dowty's, left and started to do Painting and Decorating, with no Apprenticeship, and now runs his own company. But now whinges like fuck about un-skilled tradesmen and contracts which go to firms who have skilled trades. Ironic really.

Now that would never happen.....would it?