Since When Did The Law Blame The Victim For The Guilt Of The Guilty?

[Mission]

PMSL.

[Albert Tatlock]

Thieawin.

Being arrested for Conspiricy to Fraud and not charged is classed as Moral Turpitude and that arrest can exclude a person from emigrating.

If that's true then that's wrong. Your whole life messed up by e.g. the ineptitude of a copper on the wrong track, someone making an unfounded allegation etc. Who the f**k thought that one up? What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[John Wright]

I just think you are confusing things.

 

No one can stop you emmigrating, bye bye, good luck!

 

However some strange foreign countries can insist on additional information, like if you want to immigrate we set the rules and if you don't comply tough.

 

After all it's the only reason we have to have biometric passports, good old uncle Sam won't let us in without one.

 

I suspect that its the same (not so good) old uncle Sam who is demanding your arrest records and then saying sorry, you have been arrested once, by mistake, in error, nothing came of it, but that makes you a moral degenerate with moral turpitude.

 

After all its only 10 years ago that homosexulaity was something they technically required you to declare and stopped you entering the US as.

 

So its not Mr Plod in IOM or Luton its US Immigration thats being heavy handed.

 

The land of the not so free strikes again.

[Albert Tatlock]

So its not Mr Plod in IOM or Luton its US Immigration thats being heavy handed.

 

The land of the not so free strikes again.

I seem to remember a similar argument being used in World War Two. This is cause and effect, and that should not be ignored.

 

Surely then it is up to our people to change the law, so that such things do not go on any official records. If you are innocent you are innocent, and should therefore not suffer any penalty whatsoever. I find this abhorrent, and an afront to individual human rights, and if it happened to me I would sue the arse of someone - or at least take it as high as I could. I would do the same if one of my children found their records on a DNA database after they had been proved innocent and not been charged.

[Albert Tatlock]

From the BBC "The Liberal Democrats have called for a mass repeal of 10 parliamentary acts passed by Labour since 1997.

 

A "freedom bill" sets out plans to abolish ID cards, control orders for terror suspects and to end extradition to the US "without proper evidence". The Lib Dems also pledge to end the storage of DNA details of people never charged or convicted of crimes. Party leader Sir Menzies Campbell says Labour is addicted to making laws and has created "legislative madness".

 

I wonder if any of our own candidates think along the same lines?

[The Old Git]

No one can stop you emmigrating, bye bye, good luck!

 

True, but it's the immigrating at the other end that can be a problem

 

After all its only 10 years ago that homosexulaity was something they technically required you to declare and stopped you entering the US as

 

I believe you no longer have to declare your intention to assasinate the president anymore as well

[Albert Tatlock]

I believe you no longer have to declare your intention to assasinate the president anymore as well

He did that himself this week (election). Aimed for his brain, missed his arse and shot himself in the foot.

[LoneWolf]

Thieawin.

Being arrested for Conspiricy to Fraud and not charged is classed as Moral Turpitude and that arrest can exclude a person from emigrating.

 

You are making a little more of this than is actually the case.

Conspiracy to Fraud, as you put it, is a crime involving Moral Turpitude. If you have been arrested for such a crime and not charged you may, in all probability, have to provide additional information if you wish to gain entry or emigrate to some countries. Canada, Australia and the USA all operate similar policies regarding arrest records of potential immigrants.

This really is a minor inconvenience and in my opinion is a sensible character check.

Most people contemplating emigration to another country would do some research and swiftly take whatever action is required of them.

[LoneWolf]

After all its only 10 years ago that homosexulaity was something they technically required you to declare and stopped you entering the US as.

 

Just as an aside you might be interested in this illuminating chronology of how changing social standards impact on what is and what isnt perceived as involving Moral Turpitude [what a wonderful expression!]

 

Sorry about the smileys mid quote ..seem to have picked up some formatting problems ...

 

To be blunt, such definitions provide no meaningful guidance on how to distinguish between those felonies that do involve moral turpitude and those that do not. This Court agrees with the conclusion of one commentator that “‘moral turpitude’ is an elusive, vague and troublesome concept in the law, incapable of precise definition; such is evidenced by the myriad of definitions and interpretations in judicial opinions.” Wilson, The Definitional Problems with “Moral Turpitude,” 16 J. Legal Prof. 261 (1991). . . .

 

(A). Contrast Finley v. State, 661 So. 2d 762 (Ala. Crim. App. 1995) — which held that felony DUI does not involve moral turpitude – with Jarrard v. Clayton County Board of Registrars, 262 Ga. 759, 425 S.E.2d 874 (1993), where the Georgia Supreme Court found that multiple convictions of felony DUI would render the crime to be one involving moral turpitude. If the distinction is explained by the number of convictions, how many are needed to transmogrify the crime into one of moral turpitude?

 

. The crime of moral turpitude in Williams v. State, quoted above, was sodomy. TheCourt of Criminal Appeals concluded there that homosexual conduct, even if consensual, was a crime involving moral turpitude, characterizing the offense “as abominable, detestable, unmentionable, and too disgusting and well known to require other definition or further details or description.” 316 So.2d at 365. Today, while “deviate sexual intercourse” — defined in Ala. Code §13A-6-60 – is still illegal, it is now only a misdemeanor under Ala. Code§13A-6-65(a)(3). Under changing societal standards, it would no longer serve as the basis of disqualification under the language of Section 177 of the Alabama Constitution.

 

©. Selling marijuana is a crime of moral turpitude. Jones v. State, 527So. 2d 795 (Ala.Crim.App. 1988). Selling cocaine isn’t, at least not according to Pippin v. State, 197 Ala. 613, 73 So. 340 (Ala. 1916).12

 

(D). Here in Alabama, simple possession of marijuana is not a crime of moral turpitude. See Ex parte McIntosh, 443 So. 2d 1283 (Ala. 1983). Conceptions of right and wrong apparently depend on where you live, however. In Oklahoma, for example, a misdemeanor charge of simple possession of marijuana is a crime of moral turpitude, at least in the context of disciplinary proceedings against an attorney. See State ex rel. Oklahoma Bar Ass’n v. Denton, 598 P.2d 663 (Okla. 1979).

 

(E). In Meriwether v. Crown Inv. Corp., 289 Ala. 504, 268 So. 2d 780 (Ala. 1972), the Alabama Supreme Court concluded that income tax evasion was a crime of moral turpitude. That Court later held that “the failure to pay income taxes, as opposed to the failure to file an income tax return,” is not a crime involving moral turpitude. Clark v. Alabama State Bar, 547 So.2d 461 (Ala. 1989).

 

Because the term is so vague, what it means will depend largely on the person defining it. Judge Vance:

[Mission]

Re: formatting - change B ) to B] and C 0 to C] - that should do it.

 

[LoneWolf]

Re: formatting - change B ) to B] and C 0 to C] - that should do it.

 

 

Cheers..job done

[Albert Tatlock]

After all its only 10 years ago that homosexulaity was something they technically required you to declare and stopped you entering the US as.

 

Just as an aside you might be interested in this illuminating chronology of how changing social standards impact on what is and what isnt perceived as involving Moral Turpitude [what a wonderful expression!]

 

Sorry about the smileys mid quote ..seem to have picked up some formatting problems ...

 

To be blunt, such definitions provide no meaningful guidance on how to distinguish between those felonies that do involve moral turpitude and those that do not. This Court agrees with the conclusion of one commentator that “‘moral turpitude’ is an elusive, vague and troublesome concept in the law, incapable of precise definition; such is evidenced by the myriad of definitions and interpretations in judicial opinions.” Wilson, The Definitional Problems with “Moral Turpitude,” 16 J. Legal Prof. 261 (1991). . . .

 

(A). Contrast Finley v. State, 661 So. 2d 762 (Ala. Crim. App. 1995) — which held that felony DUI does not involve moral turpitude – with Jarrard v. Clayton County Board of Registrars, 262 Ga. 759, 425 S.E.2d 874 (1993), where the Georgia Supreme Court found that multiple convictions of felony DUI would render the crime to be one involving moral turpitude. If the distinction is explained by the number of convictions, how many are needed to transmogrify the crime into one of moral turpitude?

 

. The crime of moral turpitude in Williams v. State, quoted above, was sodomy. TheCourt of Criminal Appeals concluded there that homosexual conduct, even if consensual, was a crime involving moral turpitude, characterizing the offense “as abominable, detestable, unmentionable, and too disgusting and well known to require other definition or further details or description.” 316 So.2d at 365. Today, while “deviate sexual intercourse” — defined in Ala. Code §13A-6-60 – is still illegal, it is now only a misdemeanor under Ala. Code§13A-6-65(a)(3). Under changing societal standards, it would no longer serve as the basis of disqualification under the language of Section 177 of the Alabama Constitution.

 

©. Selling marijuana is a crime of moral turpitude. Jones v. State, 527So. 2d 795 (Ala.Crim.App. 1988). Selling cocaine isn’t, at least not according to Pippin v. State, 197 Ala. 613, 73 So. 340 (Ala. 1916).12

 

(D). Here in Alabama, simple possession of marijuana is not a crime of moral turpitude. See Ex parte McIntosh, 443 So. 2d 1283 (Ala. 1983). Conceptions of right and wrong apparently depend on where you live, however. In Oklahoma, for example, a misdemeanor charge of simple possession of marijuana is a crime of moral turpitude, at least in the context of disciplinary proceedings against an attorney. See State ex rel. Oklahoma Bar Ass’n v. Denton, 598 P.2d 663 (Okla. 1979).

 

(E). In Meriwether v. Crown Inv. Corp., 289 Ala. 504, 268 So. 2d 780 (Ala. 1972), the Alabama Supreme Court concluded that income tax evasion was a crime of moral turpitude. That Court later held that “the failure to pay income taxes, as opposed to the failure to file an income tax return,” is not a crime involving moral turpitude. Clark v. Alabama State Bar, 547 So.2d 461 (Ala. 1989).

 

Because the term is so vague, what it means will depend largely on the person defining it. Judge Vance:

"Moral Turpitude" seems to be defined everywhere in legal terms i.e. usuaally following a court process:

 

n. Gross violation of standards of moral conduct, or vileness, such that an act was intentionally evil, making the act a crime. The existence of moral turpitude, as used in criminal proceedings, can bring a more severe charge or penalty for a criminal defendant.

n. A criminal behaviour that gravely infringes on the moral sentiments of the community. It is classified as a malum in se type of crime. Examples include murder, larceny and aggravated assault. Such a finding can lead to deportation in the United States, one of many collateral consequences of criminal charges.

n. Conduct done knowingly contrary to justice, honesty or good morals.

Moral turpitude is “conduct that is inherently based, vile, or depraved, and contrary to the accepted rules of morality and the duties between persons or to society in general” (Jordan v. De George, 341 U.S. 223, 229, 71 S. Ct. 703, reh’g denied, 341 U.S. 956, 71 S. Ct. 1011 (1951).

 

I can not see why anyone a] arrested and then B} charges dropped - can be or should be accused of "Moral Turpitude". Surely it is either PROVEN OR NOT PROVEN and should certainly not be assumed based on someone else making a mistake e.g. as mentioned previously - a police cock up or, worse still, an unfounded allegation.

 

Otherwise, by definition, and how it is applied in, say, emigration, "Moral Turpitude" should include: 'doing nothing wrong, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being unfortunate to have those circumstances investigated by an incompetent' i.e. down to simple probability.

[Theskeat]

What happens if the police are looking for a Rapist and you fit the discription given, the police arrest you but are later cleared. And then at some point you apply for a job which does not come under the Rehab of offenders Act.

The stigma of even being arrested for Rape, some people will still point you out as the rapist. Another point Police will always pick up a person thats been arrested for rape when ones been committed in thier area.

[Theskeat]

http://www.arrestrecordssearch.org/index4.htm

[Mission]

Are you on mod preview or something?

 

Your posts just seem to appear from nowhere at present!