Max Power Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Well all of this and the election non event merely emphasises that it is time for total reform of the way our government is constructed. The current system may have been ok in the year 979, but we live in the modern world and we are being goverened by a council of elders, a bit like a tribe of Red Indians! No wonder we never move forward, too many people fighting their seperate corners and no clear and firm policy from one MHK to the next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Kerr Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I have probably missed something, but I really do not understand why one of Mr R and Mr S didn't stand. Maybe one of them realised that if Tony stood and won, Tony's job would be vacant and its the next best thing to CM. So maybe in a few weeks we'll find out which one that was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Does anyone know if Mr Brown has written a Policy Statement, and more importantly whether it has been put on line like the ones written by Shimmin, Rodan and Cannan were: Link. I have a sense of what Mr Brown's rhetoric might be like, but as he's the only candidate I'd like to at least see what he's offering up. If the other three's statements were put online, I see no reason why Brown's shouldn't be ... come on some one in the press, keep the electorate informed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Well he did get more public votes than any one else. Not sure what that means or says His mum loves him tho. The words of a pompous cretin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke4091 Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 I certainly agree that the whole process of appointing our CM is a joke and we have to watch the whole sorry scenario again for the LegCo seats soon. However I do not understand why I appear to be in a minority of one on the forum in thinking that Tony Brown may not be that bad as CM. These days, his input to debates in the House is far better than some members, he seems to use common sense when it comes to the vote and is totally against stealth tax eg waste disposal charges on the rates etc. Apart from the manipulative process that may get him there, I haven't read much here ( except for a dislike of his facial hair! ) that would make him a bad CM for our Island. There could be worse as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahc Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 Mount Murray. He should have spotted the problems as DLGE minister and got away with it completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 we need political parties or groupings with a choice of policy and a leader each so that we actually know what we are voting for Somebody needs to kick start that process. We need political parties which have members who possess some political acumen and ability. That means finding a way to accommodate the objections Mec Vannin has to the loyal oath and revitalising the Manx Labour Party. If these two parties could be persuaded to engage the parliamentary system we would make a significant and positive beginning. Im sure a reactionary conservative party would quickly emerge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not the Comfy Chair Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 We currently vote for people - usually people who we know, or people of whom we have some knowledge. If we introduce party politics, the selection process becomes more complex. The choice then becomes, do I vote for the stated party policies, or for the person? They may coincide, but they may not. Irrespective of the decision, it is the person who is elected. The person, once elected, may not entirely stick to his party policy - this happens in other countries, and, historically, has happened here. (See Manx Labour Party for some good examples). Unless a single party has a majority in the Keys and Tynwald, the Council of Ministers will be a hybrid, and the members will have to deal with party v. CoM policy conflicts. My point is that party politics is not a panacea - from my perspective, it will add little, if any, benefit, and much complication. I am a great believer in change, provided it is for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 We currently vote for people - usually people who we know, or people of whom we have some knowledge. If we introduce party politics, the selection process becomes more complex. All the available evidence points the other way. A political party gains a majority. its leader becomes president / prime minister / chif minister. Simple really. The choice then becomes, do I vote for the stated party policies, or for the person? They may coincide, but they may not. Irrespective of the decision, it is the person who is elected. The general idea is to vote for the party. It really isnt a novel or radical idea. The person, once elected, may not entirely stick to his party policy - this happens in other countries, and, historically, has happened here. (See Manx Labour Party for some good examples). Yes thats correct. John Bell and Peter Karran are good examples of people who were elected on Manx Labour Party ticket and then proceeded to plough their own furrows. By any standard you care to mention this is despicable conduct on the part of elected representatives and IMHO amounts to fraudulent or corrupt behaviour [im placing the same meaning on corrupt as PK did wrt to Mount Murray]. However, this sort of conduct is generally unusual where the prevailing political culture is based on parties. For that reason, when it does happen, it tends to be given a lot of publicity. Unless a single party has a majority in the Keys and Tynwald, the Council of Ministers will be a hybrid, and the members will have to deal with party v. CoM policy conflicts. A party political system would have to embody the end of the Ministerial system in its current form. The majority party would form its own executive. For the avoidance of doubt this doesnt necessarily mean a majority in parliament. Independents would be just that .. independent and wouldnt play any part in the executive. Eventually they would be marginalised ad it would become very rare for an independent candidate to be elected. My point is that party politics is not a panacea - from my perspective, it will add little, if any, benefit, and much complication. I am a great believer in change, provided it is for the better. I think you are missing the point. Surely no one can argue with any credibility that the Manx political system is democratic. Its anything but democratic because there is no democratic vector which links people casting their votes with Government policy. The fact of the matter is that party politics can only strengthen the democratic vector and I would argue that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 This is a strange one for a parliament that is meant to be soverign, but I believe that the majority of issues that Tynwald deals with aren't party political or ideological. Maybe this is because of the incorrect balance we have within our political hierachy with too much overlap between local and national government, but with our tiny size this is inevitable. Until and unless this problem is solved, if it even can be, party politics will have limited influence over technocratic issues of governance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 9, 2006 Author Share Posted December 9, 2006 This is a strange one for a parliament that is meant to be soverign, but I believe that the majority of issues that Tynwald deals with aren't party political or ideological. Maybe this is because of the incorrect balance we have within our political hierachy with too much overlap between local and national government, but with our tiny size this is inevitable. Until and unless this problem is solved, if it even can be, party politics will have limited influence over technocratic issues of governance. I wouldn't agree with that. I think there is so much cut and paste legislation going on at the moment, and at an ever increasing rate, that this legislation is actually starting to define boundary lines along conventional political lines (Labour, Conservative and Liberal). If you look at the majority of laws past in the last 10 years, as you would expect, they do tend to have been driven by the UK Labour party, and the EU. There is a great deal more to come yet, much of which, many people on the island would wish to fight i.e. there is currently an 'unrepresented gap' in the system. Whether enough people become involved to form party's is another matter, but I suspect we will see party's attempt to become more dominant before the next election. Manx 'Labour' doesn't need to do anything because Tony Blair is doing it all for them, and during this election MEC Vannin confirmed itself as a 'dead duck'. I could certainly see a more conservative/liberal alliance forming to fill the gap that exists at the moment, which I suspect may perhaps encourage Manx Labour to 'reactivate' again. If the pressure was on at the next election, I think LV would likely return to its roots - thus resulting in a two party race in 2011 (along the lines of Manx Labour/Lib Van Versus Conservative/Liberal Democrat alliance). However, knowing how disinterested people are, I suspect that without strong leadership, drive and hard work, and certainly if nothing happens over the next year, this won't happen until at least 2016 - or until the mucky stuff hits the fan in the finance sector and people are forced to act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 I'm looking forward to a resurgence in the fortunes of the Whig party. They've got some fresh ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Surely no one can argue with any credibility that the Manx political system is democratic. Its anything but democratic because there is no democratic vector which links people casting their votes with Government policy. Au contraire. Most people with an interest know their MHK's personally, and can speak directly to them and raise with them the correctness or not of their ideas, and provide the MHK's with their ideas and concerns. That is the closest democratic link possible. There's not many MHKs who will then go against what their constituents want, because that would spread like wildfire, and their seat would be in danger. The fact that only three lost their seats indicates that democracy works - the people are broadly happy with their representatives and what they do for them. Otherwise there would have been a mass emptying. As to the politics of the present House, look carefully and it is a very left wing assembly. There's not many Tories in there, less than a handful I would guess. The rest are pseudo Labour/Nationalist. And there's one less Whig now that Dominic has gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Gribbon Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Fair comment there Lawnmower, but I'm not toosure about: There's not many MHKs who will then go against what their constituents want, because that would spread like wildfire, and their seat would be in danger Give it a month or two and we will all have forgotten about politicians and they can have perhaps 4 years of safety doing what they feel. For example: How many politicians voted to have the name of the Governor changed? I wonder what their constituents thought about that. How many voted to prevent a couple from giving their evidence and explanation at the Bar of Tynwald in connection with the Jurby Special Needs unit? I wonder what their constituents thought about that. National Speed Limit, etc. Of course there can never be a true 100% democracy over every single issue and we trust our representative's opinion and decision making, on our behalf. If there is a burning issue then maybe we contact them to make our voice heard. But mostly we are too busy washing the car and filling in tax forms and all that life stuff to bother about politics. I think the Island would benefit from a wider reporting of what goes on in Tynwald though, but to be honest most of the time it seems pretty boring to most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted December 9, 2006 Share Posted December 9, 2006 Does anyone know if Mr Brown has written a Policy Statement, and more importantly whether it has been put on line ... Tony Brown Policy Statement (pdf) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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