Lxxx Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Uhtred said: That’s because Russia is bad. It’s a criminal state run by criminals for the benefit of criminals. Putin is a pitiless autocrat who dominates by fear and repression. Political rivals are imprisoned on trivial or falsified charges. Russian foreign policy is predicated expressly on destabilising western democracies, which are despised. Russia is an enemy of western freedom and will, without doubt, be responsible for the attempted murder of Skripal and his daughter. Their denials are as false as everything else uttered by the Kremlin. Russia is not to be trusted in any respect. Not so different than the west then. Only our criminals are a tad more sophisticated, speak very eloquently and achieve the same ends but by more covert means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 To say we aren’t much different from them is to miss some very important things. Our society is far far more based on consent and choice. There is a quantum difference not a matter of degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 33 minutes ago, Chinahand said: The damage done to MI6's reputation for looking after its agents by this hit isn't insignificant - if you are a foreigner thinking of helping that polite young Brit who's been buying you drinks for a while you are going to think about the consequences. Spooks look after their agents Do you really think they publicly bump them off and happily spread the belief that their agents will be unsafe in retirement from the governments they have been persuaded to betray? That would be a bit of an own goal don't you think? Anyone who gets into bed with any state intelligence agency(s) knows they are expendable at any given moment, they'd be a fool to think otherwise. If you choose to dance with the devil and all that. No-one is able to be protected 24/7. The point is no-one knows who did it as no-one knows what he has been up to the past 8 years and what company he has kept. To categorically state it's Russian intelligence on the orders of Putin is just propaganda without any substance at the minute. There was a certain dossier about Russian meddling in the US election across the water that turned out to be a fictitious piece concocted by an ex-MI5 spook. Not sure why you're so certain to hang your hat on one set of professional liars over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, Lxxx said: Not so different than the west then. Only our criminals are a tad more sophisticated, speak very eloquently and achieve the same ends but by more covert means. I’d not noticed any western governments lately fabricating criminal charges against, and then locking up, political opponents who urged students and young people not to vote in presidential elections...or having journalists exposing government links to organised crime conveniently shot...I don’t consider that the French, or the Dutch, or the Norwegians, or the Spanish, or the Greeks, or the Germans or the Portugese etc etc are pursuing policies that potentially threaten my freedoms. I believe the Russians are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Just now, Lxxx said: There was a certain dossier about Russian meddling in the US election across the water that turned out to be a fictitious piece concocted by an ex-MI5 spook. Not sure why you're so certain to hang your hat on one set of professional liars over another. It hasn’t at all been proven to be fiction - the Republican Party said it was and if you believe them you’re a fool. And Steele was MI6 not MI5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Chinahand said: To say we aren’t much different from them is to miss some very important things. Our society is far far more based on consent and choice. There is a quantum difference not a matter of degree. We're not talking about general society though are we. We're talking about the criminal fringes at the upper echelons of it. A gangster in a £1000 suit is no less of a gangster than another in similar attire but who speaks a different language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lxxx Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Uhtred said: I’d not noticed any western governments lately fabricating criminal charges against, and then locking up, political opponents who urged students and young people not to vote in presidential elections...or having journalists exposing government links to organised crime conveniently shot...I don’t consider that the French, or the Dutch, or the Norwegians, or the Spanish, or the Greeks, or the Germans or the Portugese etc etc are pursuing policies that potentially threaten my freedoms. I believe the Russians are. I'm not defending the Russian state, it's a gangster state I agree. I'm just not so sure we need to be thinking in terms of intelligence agencies as good and bad guys though, which is what we're talking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 40 minutes ago, Lxxx said: I'm not defending the Russian state, it's a gangster state I agree. I'm just not so sure we need to be thinking in terms of intelligence agencies as good and bad guys though, which is what we're talking about here. Probably bad and very bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 Now then Quilp there you are touching on something I feel very strongly about. The mutual networks of trust and communication humanity has been able to voluntarily create are a huge act of goodness and something authoritarian regimes have consistently failed to replicate. We can thank goodness we live in a peaceful and well ordered society. It is very precious and must be guarded with care. Daniel Dennet put it as eloquently as anyone: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 No country has ever killed people from another country while professing they themselves to be the evil ones. All killing is done in the name of good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: We can thank goodness we live in a peaceful and well ordered society. It is very precious and must be guarded with care. This peaceful and well-ordered society you speak of. Is it? A great number of the population of this planet is either under siege by sectarian violence or ideological subjugation, and there's famine, drought and disease. You must be referring to our apparently comfortable lives here in the West. Even then, Europe is not the peaceful and well-ordered place it once was. In Britain, knife-crime, gang-warfare, sex-crimes, hate crimes, terrorists at large; we're seeing a rise in all these offences. Not quite a peaceful and well-ordered society but I'd agree what remains is very precious and needs guarding with care. All over Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 When was Europe more peaceful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bear Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 I've noticed an increasing anti-Russia content in the media. The megalomaniac club must be very keen to get the public in the mood to renew Trident so that all the contractors they have significant financial interests in can do the work badly with the cheapest labour possible for as long as possible with a ridiculous budget that then ends up costing ten times as much. Then of course there's the lucrative ongoing maintenance contract which involves cheap labour walking around in white lab coats looking busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 14 hours ago, the stinking enigma said: No country has ever killed people from another country while professing they themselves to be the evil ones. All killing is done in the name of good. Stu Peters had better watch out! There is still a contract out on him remember....Is that really sugar in your coffee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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