[BBC News] Minister to review work permits

[Newsbot]

The new minister for trade and industry commissions a review of the Isle of Man's work permit system and its administration.

 

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/6207665.stm

[Deejay Denzel]

About bloody time, there's far too many green people on this island.

[keyboarder]

The only green people I've seen on the Isle of Man are the weekend vomiters on the prom. Don't see how work permit legislation would affect those.

[Lonan3]

About bloody time, there's far too many green people on this island.

 

You mean....Shrek? Lives here?

[Rhumsaa]

that's no way to talk to the ex-CM

[Pat Ayres]

If they bothered to police the existing rules there would be no need to waste any money.

[Juan Kerr]

I'm guessing that's "review" as in "read" ?

[Amadeus]

There's actually quite a bit to review - the current system and the possible impact of the human rights act on it, for starters..

 

Taking that it was one of the main issues during the elections (together with the whole immigration debate - lost count on how many times I heard the words "bloody", "eastern europeans" and "work permit" during them months...), I do hope that it will be a rather constructive excercise.

[Dr Gonzo]

Personally, I think the principle of the work permit system is self-defeating.

"No, you can't have one because that job could be done by one of our unemployed Manx workers."

Because so many of the Island's thousands of unemployed choose to sweep the floor at KFC. And we shouldn't hand those jobs out to just anybody. We should, instead, make sure anybody from the iom who is suitably qualified to sweep floors is ensured of a job, while highly-skilled work goes to off-Islanders because their skills are rare, valuable and sought-after.

Oh, er, hang on... </ own petard>

 

hehe... edited to remove tpyos!

[thesultanofsheight]

There's actually quite a bit to review - the current system and the possible impact of the human rights act on it, for starters..

 

Can't see what the human rights act has to do with it. Its not immigration legislation - it only requires people to get a permit in order to work it does not stop them residing here.

 

By the way - talking about human rights. Many Manx people have no employment rights or rights to settle within Europe so maybe we should fix that before opening our market up anymore. You are obviously talking from the esteemed position of being an EU citizen. Many of us are not and have no free movement within the EU so maybe you could do more research before going on and on about the human rights act and eastern europeans.

 

Maybe when manx people have the same rights to work in Poland as the Poles do here we could then start to look at the system in more depth.

[John Wright]

You confuse Human Rights and the European Union. Two different things with different treaties, different bodies and different courts. Then you confuse freedom of movement and right of establishment and immigration.

 

Work permits are in total breach of the Human Rights legislation because they are highly discriminatory.

 

You don't need one to be Governor, a police man, a doctor or dentist, someone invloved in culture but you do if you do need one to sweep the streets, teach, nurse. That is discriminatory and must stop.

 

The current work permit legislation also means that employers cannot choose the best person for the job and must take a person who is merely suitable instead of the best applicant.

 

Under the Human Rights Act (based on the UN Declaration of Universal Rights and the European Convention of Human Rights of the Council of Europe) that discrimination is clearly unlawful.

 

We then have the rights and obligations under Protocol 3 of the Treaty of Rome, the EU. That treaty allows total freedom of establishment, ie the right to work for any EU citizen in any EU country. As the IOM is not an EU country and without protocol 3 no manx man would have been able to work in England, let alone the rest of the EU. it was agreed that anyone from the IOM would have the right to travel throughout Europe and live in Europe and that 95% of manx would also have the right to work in Europe. All Manx would have the right to work in UK come what may. The only restriction is that anyone with 2 manx born parents and 4 Manx born grandparents does not have this right. However they can acquire it by living in UK for 5 years.

 

Neither work permits or EU deal with immigration, just right to work, directly.

 

Then there is nationality and immigration. As all EU citizens are required to be treated equally under the EU treaties, they can live and work where they want within EU. As IOM has no nationality or immigration law we are met with, in the main, UK legislation, this means that UK law relating to EU, non EU and other nationalities takes effect for visa, entry etc, and in case of non EU citizens right to work at all. We still keep work permits, but they are not an immigration cotrol nor anti immigration. Indeed to use them that way would be a breach of Human Rights. They are a control on workers only.

 

As presently drawn they are in breach. It would be easy to make them compliant. Anyone from anywhere would need to have one, for whatever job. In addition to any nationality, immigration and work controls for aliens.

 

Under protocol 3 we cannot discriminate against Brits, Irish, Spanish or Poles or Roumanians. if we did that would breach the EU treaties as the apply to us anyway.

 

Protocol 3 is in serious need of overhaul. It allows free movement of goods and peole but not of services, financial or otherwise. We can try to amend, I don't think we will get anywhere, we can leave the EU all together and no one have any rights from IOM to go to EU and live or work, and lose free movement of goods or we can attempt full membership.

 

The problem is that at present there are more jobs going than we can fill. How do we fill them? What is so wrong with Poles or Roumanians over Brits, Irish, South Africans or Philipinos?

[Albert Tatlock]

This is a complex topic. A couple of questions John, if you don't mind?

 

Work permits are in total breach of the Human Rights legislation because they are highly discriminatory. You don't need one to be Governor, a police man, a doctor or dentist, someone invloved in culture but you do if you do need one to sweep the streets, teach, nurse. That is discriminatory and must stop. The current work permit legislation also means that employers cannot choose the best person for the job and must take a person who is merely suitable instead of the best applicant. Under the Human Rights Act (based on the UN Declaration of Universal Rights and the European Convention of Human Rights of the Council of Europe) that discrimination is clearly unlawful.

Can this not be made non-discriminatory if this rule is applied equally across the board?

Neither work permits or EU deal with immigration, just right to work, directly.

Do we not have the right to control who comes here to work (i.e. such as has been done by a UK quota system regarding Bulgarians and Romanians?

Then there is nationality and immigration. As all EU citizens are required to be treated equally under the EU treaties, they can live and work where they want within EU. As IOM has no nationality or immigration law we are met with, in the main, UK legislation, this means that UK law relating to EU, non EU and other nationalities takes effect for visa, entry etc, and in case of non EU citizens right to work at all. We still keep work permits, but they are not an immigration cotrol nor anti immigration. Indeed to use them that way would be a breach of Human Rights. They are a control on workers only. As presently drawn they are in breach. It would be easy to make them compliant. Anyone from anywhere would need to have one, for whatever job. In addition to any nationality, immigration and work controls for aliens. Under protocol 3 we cannot discriminate against Brits, Irish, Spanish or Poles or Roumanians. if we did that would breach the EU treaties as the apply to us anyway. Protocol 3 is in serious need of overhaul. It allows free movement of goods and peole but not of services, financial or otherwise. We can try to amend, I don't think we will get anywhere, we can leave the EU all together and no one have any rights from IOM to go to EU and live or work, and lose free movement of goods or we can attempt full membership. The problem is that at present there are more jobs going than we can fill. How do we fill them? What is so wrong with Poles or Roumanians over Brits, Irish, South Africans or Philipinos?

Are you really saying that: A] under EU legislation, we could actually in theory, end up with an island with no Manx people left on the island if that's what employers wanted – perhaps with just the rich-retired, the old and the sick left behind? and B] that if we amend our work permit legislation to cover everyone and every job, we will only be staving off legislation designed to inevitably fully integrate Europe?

 

In your opinion, what rights do we have to protect our culture? What rights do we have to protect Manx workers and residents from being displaced by employers? What happens to Manx workers in the event of the next inevitable recession - when competition for jobs is even tougher - and the 'best' applicants are all from abroad? Isn't the best applicant someone who also fits in with the place he/she is living and someone who demonstrates their support of local culture? Do you think the UK will just let this happen when 40% of it's population is made up of econonomic migrants (as is the island)?

 

Can we have a simple bullet point list of what MHKs need to do to protect the island under current EU/UK legislation - and to best stave off additional legislation that would undermine our culture? I think many people would find that helpful.

[thesultanofsheight]

it was agreed that anyone from the IOM would have the right to travel throughout Europe and live in Europe and that 95% of manx would also have the right to work in Europe. All Manx would have the right to work in UK come what may. The only restriction is that anyone with 2 manx born parents and 4 Manx born grandparents does not have this right. However they can acquire it by living in UK for 5 years.

 

Yes. Whereas anyone with 2 Polish born parents, and 4 Polish born grandparents can work here. Its totally bloody discrimminatory but I don't see any test cases under the Human Rights Act the other way.

 

I don't care what nationality anyone who works here is, but that is proof that the manx (as opposed to British citizens born here) are actively discriminated against and yet the work permit system is held up as discriminating against others. The problem is that there are more manx born British citixzens here than anything here now, and they don't tend to worry about the restrictions of Protocol 3 as it only affects a small number of people. But its still a matter of fact, and proof that the system is not as one sided as others imagine it to be.

 

You can also argue about full employment etc, but things change and you need to sort these inequalities out when times are good to save you a heap load of problems when times are not so good and the job competitiveness and resentment builds up.

[Rhumsaa]

Yeah the real danger here is not now when the going is good and we need all the people we can get it'll be when the bubble bursts and you start seeing young manx people moving off Island in order to find a job or a place to live while the "non-manx" keep their jobs by virtue of being the best skilled available...

[John Wright]

To reply to Albert

 

1. If everyone not born here or not having lived here for x yeras had to have a permit, whatever the job, then that solves the problem of work permits being intrinsically in breach

 

2. As we don't have our own nationality legislation and depend on the UK legislation, not at present. The quotas are highly dodgy EU wise I suspect anyway and may not stand up to European Court scrutiny if challenged

 

3. Not at present because a manx person is discriiminated in favour of under work permits. But the questuion confuses the issue as there is nothing to stop the rich, the retired and the non workers from coming here. We do use our benefits system to do that of course, no benefits for anyone less than 10 years residence. The second part of the question is can we use work permits to discriminate against segments of the EU, ie Brits and Irish ok, Roumamnians and Bulgarians not ok. The answer to that is a definite no no, both Human Rights and Protocol 3 (as it stands at present)

 

we have every right to protect and to promote our culture and our klanguage. In the EU that would be enshrined and funding would be available. It is up to us, Granting of right to live or work should be accompanied by compulsoty lessons in manx history and culture and language. The catalns do it! nad they are just a region. Of the nearly 35% migrants population half from Spain and half from elsewhere incuding a sizeable african elemnet 60+% choose catalan!

 

I cannot say that Manx is best for Mann or English for England etc etc given the mixture there is, not just now but over the centuries. I think its impossible to say who is english, who is manx etc without starting on the question of who is not and what do we do with them. Last time that happened we had a holocaust. Is any one here prepared for that, and if we do start it and it spreads, have we room for all the economic migrants coming back from UK, Canada, USA, Aus and NZ.

 

The bullet list is up to Government, not mme. I habe no answers other than that I can identify the legal problems with the existing sytem and our obligations under legislation under treaties and other binding authorities.

 

As for Sultan. Yes Protocol 3 was designed for the Europe of 9 in 1973. It is out of date. We need to cjaneg it. What chance of persuading the 25 or 27 thta we should be allowed to come and go as we please and sell our wares and our services, but no one from X, Y, Z can come here. How do we decide the XYZ and what makes you think we will agree. That is why the option to renegotiate is a non stater really.

 

I suppose the justification was that all manx were able to work in UK, so anyone who coulod wotk in UK could work here, subject to work permits. Rememeber that for the 95% who are not protocol 3 manx they don't even need work permits. I agree that is wholly unfair to prtocol 3 manx

 

last time we had a recession we had young people brought over here to work, who paid into our system, bought houses, rented and when they lost their jobs they didn't get any help, just a boat ticket home. That was in the 1980's. There aren't the jobs for the Manx, not all of us, noyt if we want to be nuclear scientists, or lots of other things, so are our bright young things going to be made to stay at home and push pens or dig roads?

 

Rhumsaa. Hasn't it been like that for the last 250 or more years. Not that I would ewver use an excuse of we always did it this way to stop me looking at a problem and trying to find an answer.