hboy Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 what on earth is uninformed about my comments? Dutch Boyd's room went down in debt, and some players lost their funds because of it, there hasn't been another single incident of a poker room closing and running with funds. Put that record against any other industry and I would be confident that it stands up fantastically. This is not specifically Isle of Man thing and I know IOM companies operate at higher levels than most but most people working in the offshore (do I have to add the word gambling here to cater for numbskulls) industry only see what their bosses want them to see. No understanding of the money laundering potential, stacked odds, free plays aimed at luring in the stupid and vulnerable, people stealing to keep up gambling habits, syndicate fixing etc. Sit in your ivory towers if you want, but we are not talking about rooms or sites going "bust" only someone very naive would believe that this is the main risk posed by the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 what on earth is uninformed about my comments? Dutch Boyd's room went down in debt, and some players lost their funds because of it, there hasn't been another single incident of a poker room closing and running with funds. Put that record against any other industry and I would be confident that it stands up fantastically. This is not specifically Isle of Man thing but most people working in the offshore industry only see what their bosses want them to see. No understanding of the money laundering potential, stacked odds, free plays aimed at luring in the stupid and vulnerable, people stealing to keep up gambling habits, syndicate fixing etc. Sit in your ivory towers if you want, but we are not talking about rooms or sites going "bust" only someone very naive would believe that this is the main risk posed by the industry. hboy, as Amadeus said, there is a great deal of difference between reality and uninformed paranoia. offshore industry - I'm not sure why oil and gas are coming into this, but I have no affiliation with oil companies and haven't mentioned them in this thread. I work in the gaming industry, the one we are discussing. Please explain stacked odds? Free plays - I presume you mean bonuses, do Tescos offer 2 for 1? Safestyle, buy one get one free, I said buy one get one free! Citreon - free years insurance with every new car. Do I need to give more examples? Are you implying that online gaming companies should not make appealing offers to their players? No understanding of the money laundering potential - should read for you: no understanding of the security measures in place to track every penny coming through an online site. The only ones at risk from this are the sites themselves, this is a non-cash industry, so the only fraud that can take place are chargebacks or theft of identity. Even though like any other business, clients identities are verified, unlike any other industry the bank will not stand for this loss even though it is often their lax security that has allowed fraud to happen, the ones at risk are the online firms, neither the player nor the bank suffers loss. It appears that the money laundering line thrown at the ex-Neteller directors intended to scare US citizens - mud sticks - has worked a dream in your case. This is not specifically Isle of Man thing but most people working in the offshore industry only see what their bosses want them to see. This however is your most ill-informed comment, what do you think we do all day? I am not a customer service rep answering phones, and even if I was many are fully aware of the workings of their businesses in this area, whereas they mostly will not know marketing contracts or the details of B2B arangements for example, but I can assure you this is an area that that I have a full business overview of, and believe me you are completely mistaken. The biggest risk to online gaming, is regulation by strangulation as happened in the first swathe of gaming businesses in the IoM who all left due to the complete lack of understanding of how the industry worked on behalf of the regulating bodies, strangely, some of whom had thoughts similar to yours. Next comes the attitude of the USA, which seeks to completely ban something that cannot be banned, by attempting to criminalise an activity that other countries deem legal and regulate themselves, they risk driving it underground into the very hands of those they claim to be trying to drive from an area they currently do not operate within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 How does the gaming industry handle the issue of money laundering? Do they verify source of funds, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael scodie Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 This is typical of the USA bullying people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 The biggest risk to online gaming, is regulation by strangulation as happened in the first swathe of gaming businesses in the IoM who all left due to the complete lack of understanding of how the industry worked on behalf of the regulating bodies, strangely, some of whom had thoughts similar to yours. Next comes the attitude of the USA, which seeks to completely ban something that cannot be banned, by attempting to criminalise an activity that other countries deem legal and regulate themselves, they risk driving it underground into the very hands of those they claim to be trying to drive from an area they currently do not operate within. Bollocks. Now maybe you can answer Declans question re money laundering checks. You've just proved that most of you people are f**king clueless when it comes to what you could potentially facilitate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Bollocks. Now maybe you can answer Declans question re money laundering checks. You've just proved that most of you people are f**king clueless when it comes to what you facilitate. Er..I have absolutely no idea what prompted you to say that, but it just seriously reinforced my opinion about your level of knowledge on this topic - pretty clear that you have little to none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 How does the gaming industry handle the issue of money laundering? Do they verify source of funds, for example? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Bollocks. Now maybe you can answer Declans question re money laundering checks. You've just proved that most of you people are f**king clueless when it comes to what you facilitate. Er..I have absolutely no idea what prompted you to say that, but it just seriously reinforced my opinion about your level of knowledge on this topic - pretty clear that you have little to none. As Amadeus says, you seem to be particularly ignorant on the subject, I gave you a long rebuttal of your previous points and asked you to explain those that made no sense such as "stacked odds", to which you have gone "bollocks" That alone not only says a lot about your knowledge of the topic, but I seriously do not expect you to be able to put a valid point across to anything I stated above. Please answer all the points I brought up, without resorting to "bollocks" or "just because" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 How does the gaming industry handle the issue of money laundering? Do they verify source of funds, for example? Yes Not exactly the most indepth answer you could have provided. Why not tell everyone expressly what you do to verify client funds as I'm sure they'd be interested. Not getting hung up on this specifically but all forms of gambling offer the potential (online or not) and I'm sure your checks are robust? Do gaming companies based here use Manx banks for banking client funds? Your posts really make me laugh. It seems YOU are trying to justify your posts rather than the other way around. Keep on posting your views are really hilarious. I'd like to hear much more about how whiter than white the global gambling industry is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 How does the gaming industry handle the issue of money laundering? Do they verify source of funds, for example? Yes Not exactly the most indepth answer you could have provided. Why not tell everyone expressly what you do to verify client funds as I'm sure they'd be interested. Not getting hung up on this specifically but all forms of gambling offer the potential (online or not) and I'm sure your checks are robust? Do gaming companies based here use Manx banks for banking client funds? Your posts really make me laugh. It seems YOU are trying to justify your posts rather than the other way around. Keep on posting your views are really hilarious. I'd like to hear much more about how whiter than white your industry is. However at this moment I can't stop laughing enough to post again. I made a substantial post prior to this one asking for your response, to which I was informed that I am talking bollocks. Well that certainly put me in my place with your barrage of facts For the moment I will ignore your ignorance on these matters, and indeed failure to provide any evidence to back up your claims. To reply to Declan, and your enquiry on why I didnt give a more in depth answer (you see I answer your questions)I was recently asked by WPT magazine to provide an article on the measures taken by online card rooms to prevent collusion, obviously I politely declined, just as in the same way I would not publice anti-fraud measures being taken that Declan is asking about here. Why? Well do the police warn a suspect that they are about to be put under surveilance, and where and at what times? Of course not, and similarly you do not give potential fraudsters the chance to circumvent the the measures you have in place and try to find a different method of escaping detection. I have no idea where Manx based companies do their banking, Poker Stars used to use RBS International,but after the UIGEA the RBS decided they would no longer offer Stars a service. I am not sure what relevance that has to the discussion in any case? Again I would ask you to back up your quite obviously biased and unsubstantiated negative views towards the gaming industry with some facts. All we have so far is that I am talking bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 To reply to Declan, and your enquiry on why I didnt give a more in depth answer (you see I answer your questions)I was recently asked by WPT magazine to provide an article on the measures taken by online card rooms to prevent collusion, obviously I politely declined, just as in the same way I would not publice anti-fraud measures being taken that Declan is asking about here. Fair enough. Actually your answer of "yes" pretty much answered my question, in that my concern was that the gaming industry couldn't just rely on the banks to do this, since not all jurisdictions are as regulated as here. Is there a regulatory body overseeing that robust procedures are in place and complied with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 I kind of thought yes was good enough as well. It depends where you are licenced, but EVERY poker room and casino is licensed somewhere. Some are obviously more robust than others, which is why a white list has developed, I believe the below are all the current wordlwide licensing bodies for the online industry: Isle of Man http://www.gov.im/gambling/ Alderney http://www.gamblingcontrol.org/ Malta http://www.lga.org.mt/lga/home.asp Gibraltar http://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/gov_depts/inte...rnet_gaming.htm Kahnawakhe http://www.kahnawake.com/gamingcommission/ Costa Rica http://www.meic.go.cr/ Curacao http://www.ciga.an/ Antigua http://www.aoga.ag/links.html Vanuatu http://www.igc.vu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hboy Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 quote name='fatshaft' post='214002' date='Jan 21 2007, 01:03 PM']I was recently asked by WPT magazine to provide an article on the measures taken by online card rooms to prevent collusion, obviously I politely declined, just as in the same way I would not publice anti-fraud measures being taken that Declan is asking about here. You seem to decline all those awkward questions. Except those that require only *yes* or *no*. Well do the police warn a suspect that they are about to be put under surveilance, and where and at what times? Of course not, and similarly you do not give potential fraudsters the chance to circumvent the the measures you have in place and try to find a different method of escaping detection.Again, very a evasive answer. I know what you have to do as I've read the gaming commission guidelines as published on their website. They are there for everyone to read so stop all this *secret squirrel* baloney. Poker Stars used to use RBS International,but after the UIGEA the RBS decided they would no longer offer Stars a service. I am not sure what relevance that has to the discussion in any case? I think its quite relevant. Which is why I asked the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatshaft Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 I was recently asked by WPT magazine to provide an article on the measures taken by online card rooms to prevent collusion, obviously I politely declined, just as in the same way I would not publice anti-fraud measures being taken that Declan is asking about here. You seem to decline all those awkward questions. Except those that require only *yes* or *no*. I have answered "yes" to one question, which Declan says was what he was looking for, you asked for more, and I explained why I would not post details. Well do the police warn a suspect that they are about to be put under surveilance, and where and at what times? Of course not, and similarly you do not give potential fraudsters the chance to circumvent the the measures you have in place and try to find a different method of escaping detection.Again, very a evasive answer. I know what you have to do as I've read the gaming commission guidelines as published on their website. They are there for everyone to read so stop all this *secret squirrel* baloney. I think you'll find that they do not have in their regulations what is undertaken on a daily basis procedurally, simply what checks are required to be made, how they're made is up to the business in question as long as compliance is maintained, however please feel free to post the relevant quotation and I will comment. Again, I presume (although a big presumption) that you work for a company where some of your procedures are company confidential, there is no way that any company will publish the procedures they use to catch undesirables, hardly evasive, more like a realistic and sensible stance to take. Poker Stars used to use RBS International,but after the UIGEA the RBS decided they would no longer offer Stars a service. I am not sure what relevance that has to the discussion in any case? I think its quite relevant. Which is why I asked the question. I am sure you do think it's relevant, I have no inkling why it would be personally, but as I seem to have answered your question in a non "yes" or "no" style which I presume meets your approval, please do me the similar courtesy of explaining why it is relevant. Finally, please answer the other questions I have posed, as yet you havent answered one. As I said previously, for some reason you seem to have an anti-gaming agenda, and rather than posting reasoned factual arguments, you just ignore every point made and make sweeping statements in and American Senator stylee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbones Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Free plays - I presume you mean bonuses, do Tescos offer 2 for 1? Safestyle, buy one get one free, I said buy one get one free! Citreon - free years insurance with every new car. Do I need to give more examples? Are you implying that online gaming companies should not make appealing offers to their players? So if a cigarette company offered 2 for the price of 1 to get you hooked, it would be OK? Gambling can cause major financial trouble, and people get massively into debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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