Chinahand Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The Catholic Church is insisting that it is allowed to refuse to provide adoption services to gays seeking to adopt Children. BBC Link As it will become illegal to discriminate against gays in the UK under the new Equality Act, the church are insisting on an opt out in the law. They want to have the right to be discriminatory. They are also saying that if they don't get this opt out they will stop providing adoption services. Given the fact that gays only make up something like 2.5% of the population and I imagine only a small percentage of these will want to adopt isn't the threat to stop providing services to the other 99% of couples who aren't gay an example of coercion by the church, and is punishing the whole due to the "sins" of the few? The whole thing seems to stink of double standards, bigotry and a general attitude that seems some what removed from the teachings of Christ ... though maybe more in line with St Paul or Elijah!! WWJD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The Catholic Church are entitled to their culture and provide a good service to the community. The homosexual lobby are also entitled to their culture. However, it remains to be seen whether, over a generation, homosexual adoption is a good thing. Forcing the Catholic community and the homosexual community to join forces does not seem appropriate to me. But then what would I know? I'm just a married, church going dad with a young family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Perhaps the more pertinenet question in this day and age is what are churches and their social services arms doing being involved in adoptions at all. They don't run mother and baby homes any more. Why are adoption agencies not subsumed into the mainstream social services. After all they are funded nowadays not by church money but by public funds for these services. In the 80's we had all the rubbish about interethnic adoptions which meant that a child from even the smallest racial minority could only be adopted by parents of that ilk. It didn't go as far as disabled babies to disbeled familises only. The adopters should be the right person, male and female, male and male or female and female for the child and able to provide for its needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copycat Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 is it known if teh position of Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor is supported wholeheartedly or not by the IOM's catholic church represenatives? if no-one knows then surely someone ought to ask for a statement so the people of Mann know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Dealing with the UK apparently there are 1 milion practising catholics. If the percentage of lesbians and gays is 2.5% then that is 1.5 million . I just wonder how long we will allow small religious minorities (of any faith or denomination) to slow us down and hold us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockjock Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 With the Roman Catholic Church declaring bancrupcy in a number of north eastern states in the USA to pay for homosexual child abuse cases I'm surprised that they are taking such a stance over adoption by homosexual partners. Perhaps they have an inside view of the problems of putting children in the "care" of homosexual adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Ayres Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Dealing with the UK apparently there are 1 milion practising catholics. If the percentage of lesbians and gays is 2.5% then that is 1.5 million . I just wonder how long we will allow small religious minorities (of any faith or denomination) to slow us down and hold us back. I don't know what they teach at legal poly nowadays but obviously not maths or English. To clarify, 2.5% of 1M is 15.000. The catholic church criticisng homosexuality, rank hipocracy more like. Another thing, gay people are not imfamoud for their stupiduty, who in their right mind would ask a catholic for a child? you have to be crazy to even think it and one thing gay people are not is crazy. I doubt very much if any right thinking person of a gay persuasion would even ask, so the point is moot. This is just a publicity stunt by the catholic church to get attention and cause unrest among sensible people. Just say that if they think that way maybe they should get out of the adoption business, as has been said what are they doing there anyway? Why are bigots allowed to adopt children? How dare they try to dictate what is going to happen and ask for exemption from an antidiscriminatary law? HOW VERY DARE THEY??? The church is a dying organisation and if this is what it takes to gather their supporters in a common cause then the sooner they pack up shop and sod off, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The church is a dying organisation and if this is what it takes to gather their supporters in a common cause then the sooner they pack up shop and sod off, the better. A lot of the Poles residing in Britain are Catholics and, if the newsapers are to be believed, the Catholic congregation is increasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Hi skrappey 2.5% of one million is 25,000 (not 15,000) but 2.5% of the UK's population , which is what the sentence infers, (60,000,000) is 1.5 million, showing there are more lesbian andgays than Catholics even if Chinahands very low 2.5% is used. Legal poly maths 1 skrappey nil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Ayres Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 So I made a simple mistake on my maths, at least it was grammatical. DEUCE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxcrabber Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 numbers aside, this is a practical issue. the services provided by all catholic charities will be impacted by this legislation (plus other faith based charities- remember similar muslim charities would be effected too). like most british law, it is all in the interpretation. i suggest that this is not a case of double standards, bigotry or blackmail but the catholic chuch pointing out the obvious. compromise is not always an option. our society is stronger due to our differences- which is why communism failed chinahand. this is a very negative thread; so many children benefit through these charities, where government continues to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Any child removed from the teachings of catholicism, or any other religion for that matter, is a victory for commonsense and the child. One less virus = one more possibility of a self aware individual = one less possibility of a viral robot. On the other hand, IMO, if that child is then brought up to think that 'gay is normal' - this is just swapping one virus form for another. 'Political correctness viruses' and 'religeous viruses' are just as bad as each other as far as I am concerned. Our parents and advisors can often teach us absolute bullplop, and it is only our own ability to see that which makes us able to think for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjDan Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 In my personal opinion, Homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt children. I think it is terribly wrong. I can very well understand the way in which the Catholic and Anglican Church are viewing the matter. If they are to be forced by law to enable Homosexuals to adopt children, then it's better to just get out now. Leave society to face the problems that society creates for itself. I cannot accept that we as a society would allow a child to be brought into the homes of a Dad and a Dad.... or a Mum and a Mum, thus depriving that child of the contribution of both parents that even nature itself decrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 numbers aside, this is a practical issue. the services provided by all catholic charities will be impacted by this legislation (plus other faith based charities- remember similar muslim charities would be effected too). like most british law, it is all in the interpretation. i suggest that this is not a case of double standards, bigotry or blackmail but the catholic chuch pointing out the obvious. compromise is not always an option. our society is stronger due to our differences- which is why communism failed chinahand. this is a very negative thread; so many children benefit through these charities, where government continues to fail. Manxcrabber, I am a little unclear in what you are saying. On the one hand you say the numbers involved aren't significant and should be put aside in this practical issue, then you say its not a case of bigotry etc, but is an example of the Catholic Church stating the obvious and that compromise isn't possible, then you praise diverisity, and mention how many people benefit from these charities. If the Church was being practical it would acknowledge that the benefits that its services bring to the community vastly outweigh the tiny numbers of gay adoptees: so they are not dealing with this as a practical issue but as a deliberate ideological issue: even though the numbers are tiny, they say "if we are forced to do this we will stop our services to everyone." If the Catholic Church agreed with you that diversity was a good thing, it would acknowledge due to it being a small minority in this country it by definition has to regularly deal with people who do not agree with its theology. I find your statement that it is "obvious" that the Catholic Church cannot work with homosexuals very odd. The Catholic Church in its administering to the general community has to deal with huge numbers of people who fundamentally disagree with its tenants of faith, and with people who live in states that the Church would see as far from Grace and who without accepting the message of the Catholic Church would be destined to a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth, apart from God. In it providing services to the general community it has agreed to provide those services without bias to community. This is a part of the strong Christian tradition of administering to the sinner, and via good works showing those outside the Church a way to salvation. If the Catholic Church is happy to work with Muslims, Protestants, and Wickans, the unmarried, the unconventional in all other ways, other than been gay, then I find it odd in the extreme that it claims homosexuality is the last straw. They seem to be saying "We will deal with sinners of all sorts, apart from gays." What absolute theological clap trap. There is no evidence what so ever that gay adoptees produce gay children, in fact the strongest correlation with gayness is number of brothers born prior to you - if you are a first child and adopted into a family with 5 older brothers your chances of becoming gay are no different than normal, but if you were the 6th (or 7th or 3rd) male child born into the family for each elder biological male sibling you have the chance of you being gay significantly increases. The idea that gay adoptees are going to become a significant part of our society is simply not true - demographics makes this an imposibility. But the idea that this minority should be beyond the pale, and anathema is bigotry of the highest order. They will never be normal in the meaning of common, but I see no reason why they should not be seen as a part of our community. Churches live, and prosper via sin. They say homosexuals are sinful and though they say their works are with the sinner, they say they will not work with these sinners. Communities live and prosper by acknowledging that diversity is an accepted reality. Homosexuals are different, and communities have to deal with people who are different. Doing this will not destroy the community, or cause a contagon to spread through it. It will just make the community more tolerant, and more inclusive. I think there is strength in that. Oh and given the statements by various archbisops this morning if you wish replace every mention of Catholic Church with Church of England ... or any other religion of your choosing ... fine, my beef isn't with the Catholics in particular, if the Anglicans or Muslims are going to be bigots I'm quite happy to attack them too. Edited: god I mangle this lovely language! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Take Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Pick your discrimination, people -either we discriminate against gay people by not allowing them to adopt or we discriminate against Catholics (and whosoever else is against homosexual adoption) by forcing them to allow gay adoption from their foster homes if they wish to continue running them. There really is no middle ground here, because as soon as a loophole is put in place for one minority then others will eat away at it (often quite rightly) until there is more hole than loop. Personally, I would choose to discriminate against the Catholics because I don't place much value in their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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