When Skies Are Grey Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The return of catholic persecution is upon us and it's a terrfying scenario. Well if you dish it out...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 I just cannot bear the thought that, if our children were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a homosexual couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little twelve year old boy, still missing his Mummy and Daddy, might find himself in a house where two men sleep together and practice homosexuality. To my family the thought is utterly dreadful. I have a perfect right to exercise my point of view in accordance with my religion and no one is going to take that away from me. Furthermore I have a right to stipulate what I want for my children. However, in the UK that right has now been taken away from families like ours. The return of catholic persecution is upon us and it's a terrfying scenario. The UK Government is outlawing religious beliefs bit by bit and its time for the fight back to begin. Cronky thank you for raising a very different and very important issue, and doing it in a concise way - the rights of parents to control the adoption of their children. The Catholic Church are providing a service - they are intermediating between two sides - the couple seeking to adopt - and the child needing adoption. The rights of the family of the child to have a say in the adoption of their child are I think important - they have a right to walk away from this service ... and leave the Child in care. I think in only exceptional circumstances should this side of the bargin be broken by the state - I imagine the breaking of this bargain will (and has?) trouble family courts, but I do not think dissaproving of gay adoption should be enough to make the state discount the parents wishes; if they are content to allow gay adoption fine, if not then their choice to leave their child in care should be respected. And I think wills etc should be allowed to be binding on this. I reiterate this is a service and the service has two sides - forcing a person into an adoption is wrong - and people have rightly criticized the practices of the 1950s where children were taken over the objections of mothers and families. Now I have to say though that your post concentrates on the sexual behaviour of the gay couple and totally ignores the care and material environment they can provide. That to me takes one issue out of proportion in deciding the best course for the care of my children. If my wife and I were killed I'd like my children to be cared for by my family, if that is not possible I think I would be more concerned about them going into a care home than into a gay family which has gone through a full adoption audit. That puts alot of emphasis on the adoption commitee making the right decision, and you do hear nightmare stories about adoption gone wrong. But I think there are more nightmare stories about care homes. I totally acknowledge this is a personal choice - and I agree with you that the government shouldn't interfer with that choice. You'll have to accept the alternative - your lonely and sad child remaining in state care for longer. Is that really such an easy choice for you to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I just cannot bear the thought that, if our children were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a homosexual couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little twelve year old boy, still missing his Mummy and Daddy, might find himself in a house where two men sleep together and practice homosexuality. To my family the thought is utterly dreadful. I have a perfect right to exercise my point of view in accordance with my religion and no one is going to take that away from me. Furthermore I have a right to stipulate what I want for my children. However, in the UK that right has now been taken away from families like ours. The return of catholic persecution is upon us and it's a terrfying scenario. The UK Government is outlawing religious beliefs bit by bit and its time for the fight back to begin. Cronky thank you for raising a very different and very important issue, and doing it in a concise way - the rights of parents to control the adoption of their children. The Catholic Church are providing a service - they are intermediating between two sides - the couple seeking to adopt - and the child needing adoption. The rights of the family of the child to have a say in the adoption of their child are I think important - they have a right to walk away from this service ... and leave the Child in care. I think in only exceptional circumstances should this side of the bargin be broken by the state - I imagine the breaking of this bargain will (and has?) trouble family courts, but I do not think dissaproving of gay adoption should be enough to make the state discount the parents wishes; if they are content to allow gay adoption fine, if not then their choice to leave their child in care should be respected. And I think wills etc should be allowed to be binding on this. I reiterate this is a service and the service has two sides - forcing a person into an adoption is wrong - and people have rightly criticized the practices of the 1950s where children were taken over the objections of mothers and families. Now I have to say though that your post concentrates on the sexual behaviour of the gay couple and totally ignores the care and material environment they can provide. That to me takes one issue out of proportion in deciding the best course for the care of my children. If my wife and I were killed I'd like my children to be cared for by my family, if that is not possible I think I would be more concerned about them going into a care home than into a gay family which has gone through a full adoption audit. That puts alot of emphasis on the adoption commitee making the right decision, and you do hear nightmare stories about adoption gone wrong. But I think there are more nightmare stories about care homes. I totally acknowledge this is a personal choice - and I agree with you that the government shouldn't interfer with that choice. You'll have to accept the alternative - your lonely and sad child remaining in state care for longer. Is that really such an easy choice for you to make? Time after time you're creating the impression that there is a shortage of heterosexual couples looking to adopt. You are making it sound as if the only alternatives are between a 'lonely and sad child remaining in state care for longer' or being adopted by a homosexual couple. That is utter nonsense. If you think that is the case - prove it. If not, please stop spouting such sickeningly inaccurate drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Time after time you're creating the impression that there is a shortage of heterosexual couples looking to adopt. You are making it sound as if the only alternatives are between a 'lonely and sad child remaining in state care for longer' or being adopted by a homosexual couple. That is utter nonsense. If you think that is the case - prove it. If not, please stop spouting such sickeningly inaccurate drivel. Erm .. inaccurate drivel? BBC News Story Move to tackle adoption crisis Children from black and ethnic minority backgrounds are spending too long in care, according to councils in the north-east of England. Now eight local authorities are joining forces to improve the success of foster placements and adoptions in the region. Felicity Collier, Chief Executive of the British Association of Adoption and Fostering (BAAF), said: "One in five children in the UK waiting for adoption are from black and minority ethnic communities. "Sadly, many of these children wait far too long for new families. "We welcome this important project which we hope will go a long way towards helping us understand how we can recruit more black and minority ethnic adopters and result in many more children finding loving and lifelong homes." Second BBC New Story One in five children waiting to be adopted receives no enquiries from families interested in considering them, new figures from the British Association for Adoption and Fostering suggest. Children from an African-Caribbean background and boys of over three years are least likely to be approached by potential parents. The charity estimates that 48,000 children in the UK are currently living with foster carers and 3,200 children on the adoption register for England and Wales are waiting for families to adopt them. From the US: The crisis concerns special-needs children, who are defined as those from minority or cross-cultural backgrounds, physically or mentally challenged, drug-exposed, or HIV-positive. "There are 500,000 such children waiting for homes," according to the authors, who point out that the Federal Adoption Assistance Act (1980) impelled Social Services to find homes for them." Do you want me to keep looking? Are you so convinced that gay adoption will not help aleviate this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Reliable statistics from British Association for Adoption & Fostering England 60,300 children were in the care of local authorities on 31st March 2006 5% (2,900) of children looked after on 31st March 2006 were under 1 year old 14% (8,500) were aged between 1 and 4 years old 19% (11,500) were aged between 5 and 9 years old 43% (26,100) were aged between 10 and 15 years old 19% (11,300) were aged 16 and over 70% (42,000) were living with foster carers 11% (8,600) of children looked after on 31st March 2006 were living in children’s homes (includes secure units, homes, hostels but excluding residential schools) 9% (5,300) were living with their parents 5% (2,900) were placed for adoption 6% (3,600) were in other accommodation Waiting times 77% (2,800) children were placed for adoption within 12 months of best interest decision during the year ending 31st March 2006 Wales 4,380 children were in the care of local authorities on 31st March 2005 1,709 children started to be looked after during the year ending 31st March 2005 1,629 children ceased to be looked after during the year ending 31st March 2005 4.8% (210) of children looked after on 31st March 2005 were under 1 year old 16.8% (738) were aged between 1 and 4 years old 24.1% (1,056) were aged between 5 and 9 years old 41.9% (1,837) were aged between 10 and 15 years old 12.3% (539) were aged 16 and over 73% (3,194) of children looked after on 31st March 2005 were living with foster carers 13.6% (596) were living with their parents or family 5.3% (234) were living in children's homes 4.6% (201) were placed for adoption That looks like a total 8,834 who were living in children’s homes (includes secure units, homes, hostels but excluding residential schools) Unfortunately the figures are not available to let us know how many were in secure units (i.e. those placed there either as the result of criminal activities or for their own protection). 3,938 were placed for adoption in year ending 31st mar 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addie Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 There was a very interesting debate on the BBC's Today Programme this morning. Will that sound link work? Anyway, the numbers relating to the success rates of male+female adopting parents were interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 And a very interesting personal article in TODAY'S TELEGRAPH that is worth reading in full. EXTRACTS: "My husband and I are a typical, professional couple who left it too late to have children. We married in 1992, when I was in my late thirties. A few years later, I miscarried. In 2000, when we were in our mid-forties, we decided that we wanted to adopt. We contacted various adoption agencies: all of them had a waiting list of about 18 months. We didn't want to wait, so we approached our local council, which had a slightly shorter waiting list. As we were over 40, we knew we would not be eligible for a baby, so we said we would be happy to have a child up to the age of 10. The home assessment process then began, which involved regular visits by social workers over an 18-month period. We got the distinct impression that they had a real problem with our Christian faith, although our home is not overtly religious and neither are we. Would we want a child placed with us to accompany us to church? Would we put pressure on a child who didn't want to go? We said that it wouldn't be a problem because, if a child didn't want to go to church, one of us would stay at home. We do not believe that you can ram Christianity down anyone's throat; a child has to make up his or her own mind. The social workers were keen to know how we would react if a child announced that he or she was gay. We said that we believe that the same ground rules apply whether you are gay or heterosexual: that sex before marriage is wrong. We don't believe in same-sex marriages but, if a child told us he or she was gay, we would still love that child, even if we didn't agree with the lifestyle they chose. At the end of the home assessment, the report concluded that we had too idealistic a view of family life and marriage and that this might prejudice a homosexual child: a gay child would see the way we live and feel that we wouldn't be able to support him or her in their lifestyle. Why is it there isn't the same concern about placing a heterosexual child with a homosexual couple who might not be able to support a heterosexual child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I just cannot bear the thought that, if our children were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a homosexual couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little twelve year old boy, still missing his Mummy and Daddy, might find himself in a house where two men sleep together and practice homosexuality. To my family the thought is utterly dreadful. I cannot bear the thought that if any children of mine were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a religous couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little boy or girl (of any age), still missing their agnostic parents, might find himself in a house where people have to pray and say grace, and get dragged off to church or sunday school. Particularly to the catholic church, many of whose official representatives are not averse to a little child abuse, gay or otherwise. To me that thought is utterly dreadful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 There is a real shortgae of prospective adopters exceot for white babies Many prospective adopters heterosexual or homosexual are unsuitable to adopt any one The concerns over supporting heterosexually maturing children with gay adopters would be explored in just the same way it was the other way round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I just cannot bear the thought that, if our children were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a homosexual couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little twelve year old boy, still missing his Mummy and Daddy, might find himself in a house where two men sleep together and practice homosexuality. To my family the thought is utterly dreadful. I cannot bear the thought that if any children of mine were to be orphaned, they might be adopted by a religous couple. I try not to imagine that one day, a little boy or girl (of any age), still missing their agnostic parents, might find himself in a house where people have to pray and say grace, and get dragged off to church or sunday school. Particularly to the catholic church, many of whose official representatives are not averse to a little child abuse, gay or otherwise. To me that thought is utterly dreadful. Yes - you can also picture yourself when you were 10 - 15 had you been orphaned. Would you like to be adopted by a gay or deeply religeous couple? Either way my mates would have had a field day. It's good to know that at least they tend to listen to what kids want a bit more these days. The first option should always be a 'conventional' UK family - i.e. Mom and Dad with no fervant hang ups. The argument here covers the rights of minority groups - but ask why the **** are these people in a minority group? ...and the answer is alway because religious fanatics and gays ARE different and ARE a minority. Face up to it. What kid wants to be placed with a family that's different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 There is a real shortgae of prospective adopters exceot for white babies Many prospective adopters heterosexual or homosexual are unsuitable to adopt any one The concerns over supporting heterosexually maturing children with gay adopters would be explored in just the same way it was the other way round I can only admire your faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 see my personal post above The people I know are applying to adopt as a couple, ie the biological mother and her leisbian partner. I can assure you those questions were asked. I have no faith and not even great expectations of social services, churched linked or not, but they have a set of questiuons they must ask to avoid being accused of diosrcrimination or lessening the childs chances. Its a bit like adoption by numbers. I speak from fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The UK Government is outlawing religious beliefs bit by bit and its time for the fight back to begin. Well you are a minority... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 And a very interesting personal article in TODAY'S TELEGRAPH that is worth reading in full. EXTRACTS: "We contacted various adoption agencies: all of them had a waiting list of about 18 months. We didn't want to wait, so we approached our local council, which had a slightly shorter waiting list. Lonan3 I think you will find that the "waiting list" would more accurately be described as a vetting period. It is not that there are 18 months worth of people all wanting to adopt; it is that it takes that long to get approval. Adding a bit more detail to the statistics you posted earlier, the department of education and skills published detailed statistics for adoption in England between 2002 and 2006. They found in 2006 it took over 12 months to find places for 830 children after the decision was taken that it was in the best interest of the child for them to be put up for adoption. This represents 23% of all Children; ie one in four children took over a year to place. In 2005 it was 720, in 2004 790, 2003 690 and 2002 700: I wonder how many kids are recorded in every single year? The government target is 90% placed in 12 months and unfortunatley they are no where near achieving this 81% is the highest figure placed in the last 5 years and there has been a deterioration recently. The figure I posted that one in five children waiting to be adopted receives no enquiries from families interested in considering them was also from the British Association for Adoption and Fostering and this Independent article puts and interesting slant on how Gay and Lesbian couples are more likely to take problem children who haven't been considered for adoption previously. For those [lesbian and gay couples] that do weather the adoption journey (and interestingly, there are as many female couples as male), the level of dedication required clearly comes from one overriding wish: to give children a good experience of care. Indeed, lesbian and gay people disproportionately adopt those hardest to place, including older children, children with disabilities and children with emotional difficulties. It is also the case that these adoptions rarely break down, and there is evidence of healthy and happy outcomes for the children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Digging a bit deeper: According to the Office of National Statistics in 2005 of the 3800 children adopted it took over 7 years to find places for 90 of those children and 27% or 1010 children had to wait over 3 years to get a place. As a result of this I do not think I was talking "sickeningly inaccurate drivel" when I talked about the risk of leaving a child in care for a long period of time. Lonan3, direct question: do you still think I am talking "sickeningly inaccurate drivel"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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