Why Does The Christian World Put Itself Between The Fighting Parties Of Islam

[copycat]

http://www.misterthorne.org/ESSAYS/sunni_v_shia.htm

 

why not just let them fight it out between themselves and let them slaughter each other. why does the Christian world feel the need to intervene?

[Chinahand]

Manxchatterbox was always a great humanitarian.

[Chinahand]

I really get pissed off with sloppy thinking which simply states that religion is causing conflict rather than contemporary political factors.

 

Of course religion is one contemporary political factor; people identify with their co-religionists; especially when there is a conflict which results in their community been targeted. But the causes of the community been drawn into "a culture of violence" are much more complicated and relevent. See this conference on "Cultures of Violence" held at Mansfield College, Oxford in 2004 to get a flavour of the academic research in this area - for example Globalization and Structural Violence

 

It is perfectly possible to have a situation where two communities are drawn into violence, while the same two communities exist in very similar circumstances elsewhere without anywhere near the same level of conflict. The protestant/catholic divides in Liverpool or Glasgow compared to Belfast are superficially helpful, or to take a more historical view the Dutch and Protestant reactions to Imperial Spain in the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

The Wars that wracked central Europe in the 16th and 17th century are usually blamed on religion: the treaties of Augsburg and Westphalia specifically ruled that "cuius regio, eius religio" (Whose rule, his religion) would end religious conflict by forcing everyone in a particular principality to adopt the religion of the Prince - or leave (we call that ethnic clensing nowadays!).

 

But what caused this religious conflict to "suddenly" break out one thousand five hundred years after the founding of that religion. Contemporary social change, the emergence of new social groups independent of the feudal agricultural system and changing relations between the Princes and the Catholic Church are far more important than the simple theology of Christianity in understanding this.

 

And so back to the present day. Yes in a way superficially similar to the Catholic Protesent split Islam has created a difference which the contemporary political situation has exasparated. The power relationship between these two groups has recently been very much upset (now who did that then - oh yes Mr George W Bush), and the lack of any consititutional or consensual way to mediate that change has resulted in violence.

 

Copycat - why doesn't she just give up and keep the continuity of Manxchatterbox - has said this is Christians putting themselves between the factions of Islam.

 

Oh simplicities of simplicities - the fact the West is Christian has fascinated sociologists since Weber invented the term Protestent Work ethic, but this has very little relevence to the causes of what is going on in Iraq compared to the fact the west is dependent upon Middle East oil and has a direct financial interest in keeping the countries that make up the region stable and pro-west.

 

The west has basically ignored inter-muslim and muslim/Christian violence going on in Indonesia over the last 50 years - it is now only taking an interest as it worries that Al Qaeda ideas of global jihad could use these conflicts to recruit in its campaigns against the west.

 

For the causes of violence you have to look a lot deeper than just the religions of the people involved.

 

The US and the UK has created a huge "unholy" mess in Iraq - the consequences of their actions will reverberate for many decades to come - Iran, the Shia Cresent, and the Sunni tyrannies, which have wrecked the hopes of entire generations in the Middle East, will all be deeply affected - and the overspill into the west could also be catastrophic.

 

We have to make very great efforts to end the cultures of violence formenting in the Middle East (and the US/West). I believe the US is now clearly aware of the costs of the conflicts it has created - and is aware that these costs could well escalate, not reduce in the near future.

 

But the idea that passivism in the face of militant violence is a solution is very probably misguided. Blair has raised that issue in his recent speeches. Trying to understand how to react to these global issues via national politics is a real challenge and the answers are by no means simple.

 

We live in interesting times - but the curse of that phrase is also very real. Simplistic attitudes - it's just religion, let's get out - are very unlikely to be productive. Getting the politics right, as well as the military strategy and tactics, is vital: are we doing it at the moment? I don't think so - but cutting and running will create a huge vacumn and we simply don't know what will fill it - other than Chaos.

[Rhumsaa]

maybe they're setting themselves up for a 2nd crusade

[Albert Tatlock]

Sunny and Shia have never got on. They were once a powerful force together, but he's dead now and she's a crap singer on her own.

[copycat]

still waiting for a reasoned answer to the question: why does the Christian world feel the need to intervene?

 

(also - MCB gone to New Zealand and didn't leave access password)

[John Wright]

still waiting for a reasoned answer to the question: why does the Christian world feel the need to intervene?

 

(also - MCB gone to New Zealand and didn't leave access password)

 

Q 1 Oil and economic self interest

 

But see these interesting BBC links on the history of the Shia/Sunni divide and an interesting view point that it may be heading somewhere ese entirely

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/6327201.stm

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/is...nnishia_4.shtml

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6328753.stm

[Albert Tatlock]

(also - MCB gone to New Zealand and didn't leave access password)

NZ - the land of sheep. That explains a lot.

 

You don't need an access password - just give em a drink of water and say BaaaAAAaaaaaAAAh! (so I read).

[Albert Tatlock]

IMO, the simplest answer to your question of ‘Why do the Christians intervene between Sunni and Shia?’ is – because it suits them.

 

The west (predominately Christians, and seen as 'Infidels' by the Arabs) run their economy on oil, which the Sunni’s and Shia’s (and others) have in abundance. If it wasn't for oil, many of these countries would be left alone, in much the way countries are left in Africa (except for those stripped of other raw materials).

 

But the west have also complicated the middle east region further by landing Israel (more 'Infidels') onto Sunni and Shia lands (and other lands), failed to maintain the original borders, and armed Israel to the teeth.

 

The result – a lot of pissed off, oil rich, disorganised, displaced Arabs, who have the potential to dictate much of the west’s economy. Add to that the fervent Christian in the Whitehouse, the fervent Christian in No 10, and the fervant religious leaders in Israel (and all of their 'Infidel' predecessors) who have never really believed in the same God as the Arabs (and have always, by their deeds, demonstrated that they see the Arabs as ‘heathens’) - and you have all of the ingredients for a perpetual religious war over oil.

 

Personally, I think that the differences between Sunni and Shia are analagous to the differences between Catholic and Protestant and our own Northern Ireland problems. But until we begin to sort the issues surrounding Israel, and make a general peace with both the Sunni’s and Shia’s (and others) on that issue alone, there is little hope of even beginning to try and help the Sunni’s and Shia’s sort out there own differences and live in peace.

 

Consider this – with no effort even to start to derive a lasting solution, in the meantime isn’t it better to have your ‘enemy’ fighting amongst themselves, rather than them becoming organised and fighting against you? …thus giving you a ‘remit’ to sort out ‘local problems and dictators’, call fractional attempts at targeting the west (driven by it’s support of Israel) ‘terrorism’, and keep the oil flowing, whilst rewarding all of your supporters (big business) at the same time.

 

If the Catholics in Northern Ireland owned land that had billions of barrels of oil on it, and the protestants had the same amount of land and no oil, do you really think there would be a peace in Northern Ireland at the moment?

 

People who say this is not a religious war are deluding themselves. Until we get rid of our own religious fundamenalist leaders and put someone with a little commonsense in their place, then everyone else, and especially our own young soldiers, have to pay the price.

 

And if you don't think it's a religious war with oil as the prize, ask yourself this: If there were two fighters who had shot at each other, and lay dying next to each other in Baghdad - one a Sunni terrorist, and the other an American Soldier - what do you think THEY would give as their reasons for dying there? And then ask yourself again - but this time for a Sunni Terrorist and a British soldier laying dying next to each other in Basra.

 

 

_

[Chinahand]

If the Catholics in Northern Ireland owned land that had billions of barrels of oil on it, and the protestants had the same amount of land and no oil, do you really think there would be a peace in Northern Ireland at the moment?

Doesn't bode well for the Scottish Independence movement then. Civil war here we come - all down to Alex Salmond, sasanach religion and North Sea oil.

[John Wright]

Very good literary allusion. Good play.

 

Economic self interest and how the poorest always pay

[copycat]

Obamah says he has a plan to have US troops home by March 2008 - let the muslims fight it out themsleves and slaughter each other, bring in the Iranians and let them sort it out.

[copycat]

getting the troops "home" ie out of Irag will be so they don't get caught by the nuclear fall-out from the first pre-emptive strike against Natanz in Iran

 

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/040812.htm