Lonan3 Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 So is ethanol going to be (one of) the saviour(s) of the planet - or is it going to create more problems than it solves? Independent Article You'll really need to read the whole thing. These are just snippets: The ethanol boom is coming. The twin threats of climate change and energy security are creating an unprecedented thirst for alternative energy with ethanol leading the way. That process is set to reach a landmark on Thursday when the US President, George Bush, arrives in Brazil to kick-start the creation of an international market for ethanol that could one day rival oil as a global commodity. To its advocates, ethanol, which can be made from corn, barley, wheat, sugar cane or beet is a green panacea - a clean-burning, renewable energy source that will see us switch from dwindling oil wells to boundless fields of crops to satisfy our energy needs. The ethanol industry has been linked with air and water pollution on an epic scale, along with deforestation in both the Amazon and Atlantic rainforests, as well as the wholesale destruction of Brazil's unique savannah land. While Brazil's tropical climate allows it to source alcohol from its sugar crop, the US has turned to its industrialised corn belt for the raw material to substitute oil. The American economist Lester R Brown, from the Earth Policy Institute, is leading the warning voices: "The competition for grain between the world's 800 million motorists who want to maintain their mobility and its two billion poorest people who are simply trying to stay alive is emerging as an epic issue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 There's not much I disagree with there, other than most of the issues there are political issues, not scientific issues as to why Ethanol shouldn't be used. From a global warming point of view, chopping down rainforests to build sugar plantations is bullshit. Putting ethanol from corn in cars while people starve is also bullshit, but so's paying for oil while people starve, and we do that now. The argument for enhanol is more compelling as a replacement for oil rather than some cure all for global warming, which is why Brazil and the US are taking it so seriously. They dont give a fuck about carbon emissions, they just want to reduce their resilience on oil. Ethanol and othe biofules I'm sure will have a place in both oil replacement and reducing co2, but the following really have to apply: - not replacing forests with ethanol producing plantations - producing ethanol crops locally - not using petroliums to fertalise the crops - combining the production power requirements with other renewables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombay Bad Boy Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 How about allowing people to brew their own biodiesel from waste chip fat, free of duty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 From a global warming point of view, chopping down rainforests to build sugar plantations is bullshit. They dont give a fuck about carbon emissions, they just want to reduce their resilience on oil. As well as ethanol producing less carbon dioxide when burned, don't forget that when corn, sugar cane etc. grows it converts carbon dioxide to oxygen: 6CO2 + 6H2O + sunlight energy = C6H12O6 + 6O2 A sort of win, win situation for a change. Edited to correct chemical formula! oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 As well as ethanol producing less carbon dioxide when burned, don't forget that when corn, sugar cane etc. grows it converts carbon dioxide to oxygen:6CO2 + 6H2O + sunlight energy = C6H12 + 6O2 A sort of win, win situation for a change. Your forgetting the petrochemical fertaliser used to grow the crop and the energy consumption used in producing it both in the field, refining it and delivering it. It's better than oil yes, but it's not quite carbon neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alias Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Ethanol in the UK is currently made from hydration of ethylene, which comes from oil (it's cheaper). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Your forgetting the petrochemical fertaliser used to grow the crop and the energy consumption used in producing it both in the field, refining it and delivering it. It's better than oil yes, but it's not quite carbon neutral. Marginally better at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Your forgetting the petrochemical fertaliser used to grow the crop and the energy consumption used in producing it both in the field, refining it and delivering it. It's better than oil yes, but it's not quite carbon neutral. But they don't have to use petro-chemical fertiliser, they could use simple crop rotation as has worked well since the middle ages. Production and delivery could also use ethanol. If you look at petrol that has to be pumped out of the ground, refined, delivered but with absolutely no "green" return. If you read that independant report it is rather one sided. I mean at the end it extimates that to fill one 4x4 tank will take enough grain to feen a person for a year. So what? What is the point of that statement? It may even be true but it is a pointless comment. As a point of reference, it takes one kilo of grapes to produce one bottle of wine. 10 bottles of wine will give you one litre if pure ethanol (10 kilos of grapes per litre of ethanol). However, that is for human consumption. By using processes of refermentation etc. it is likely you will get about 50-60% more alcohol than that (so 6 kilos of grapes per litre of ethanol). If a BMW X3 petrol tank is 67 litres that means it takes 402 kgs of grapes to fill. Would 402 kgs of grapes feed a person for a year? Probably. However, I would rather have the wine!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 But they don't have to use petro-chemical fertiliser, they could use simple crop rotation as has worked well since the middle ages. Production and delivery could also use ethanol. If you look at petrol that has to be pumped out of the ground, refined, delivered but with absolutely no "green" return. You could use simple crop rotation, but the issue is simply the vast quantity of crop you need to create ethanol makes that largely impractical. I accept it's better than Petroliums but I dont think it's anything like carbon neutral. If you read that independant report it is rather one sided. I mean at the end it extimates that to fill one 4x4 tank will take enough grain to feen a person for a year. So what? What is the point of that statement? It may even be true but it is a pointless comment. It's in the context of using crops for fuel while people are starving. That's still kind of meaningless though, we're using petrol now while people are staving. While we couldn't feed folks petrol, we could use that petrol to feed em rather than drive ourselves down the chippy... As a point of reference, it takes one kilo of grapes to produce one bottle of wine. 10 bottles of wine will give you one litre if pure ethanol (10 kilos of grapes per litre of ethanol). However, that is for human consumption. By using processes of refermentation etc. it is likely you will get about 50-60% more alcohol than that (so 6 kilos of grapes per litre of ethanol). If a BMW X3 petrol tank is 67 litres that means it takes 402 kgs of grapes to fill. Would 402 kgs of grapes feed a person for a year? Probably. However, I would rather have the wine!!! Aye, but you're not dying of starvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Slim, most of the people who are dying of starvation are doing so because of fascist regimes and oppression, not lack of funds or food. The left over mash post fermentation can also be used as fertiliser. Apart from that, alcohol can be produced from virtually anything organic, including the left overs after corn, rice etc. have been removed for eating. There is plenty of undersea vegitation that can be used too. No, it is not carbon neutral but it is closer than oil, but could be closer still. p.s. please see TV thread in general chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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