sausage Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausage Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 1. Cannabis = Gateway drug = Absolute bollocks. Quote from PK All you are doing here is just bleating on about alcohol as though it kind-of supports a nebulous position that cannabis is not a gateway drug. In some cases it is as the pushers want you hooked on their most profitable products. You do understand that don't you?. Wrong wrong wrong ! No bleating, pointing out a very simple undeniable fact that the majority of kids first taste of mind altering drugs is through alcohol. Gateway drug is a right wing soundbite created by political morons who have no experience in the field they are debating, very similar to yourself !!! 2. People talk about DRUGS as if they are all in one category and all evil terrible things that make people rob grannies Quote from PK I refer to my original post: Well please refer to mine when I said heroin and crack ARE responsible for the vast majority of so called DRUG related crime and need special focus There are about 200,000 users of heroin and crack cocaine in the UK.... blah-di-blah-di-blah.....the junkies in the UK have to steal £15,000,000,000 worth of stuff every year to fund their habit.And they DO nick stuff from grannies, the more defenceless the better. Dear me, exactly which planet are you on?/quote] Again you muppet read my earlier post, I have not denied that heroin and crack users are responsible for huge amounts of crime. Once again and slowly for your benefit, I was trying to say that this shouldnt be attributed to all DRUG users, its so called hard drug users that are largely responsible and this needs to be tackled in other ways than prison and illegality 3. Prohibition does not work. Quote from BK BS in it's purest form. They genuinely do not know just how high they can get and what a plague on society they can become. I'm also very happy for the jails to be full. I'd far rather they were in there and off the streets rather than preying on the rest of us to feed their habit. How exactly can it be BS ? Prisons overcrowded, early release for hard drug users who re-offend and re-offend causing more misery to the innocent, IT DOES NOT WORK !!!! 4. Many people can use some kind of drug in a controlled moderate way and never let their personal use impact anyone else or society in any way. Quote from PK Completely wrong. The same people who supply soft drugs usually supply hard drugs as well, or at least their organisation does. So over the last 20 years you've been financially supporting their efforts. Well done, something to be proud of not. You really demonstrate your complete naievity here. You dont call at a 'DRUG' dealers house for him to open a pantry with the soft stuff on the bottom shelf and the really naughty stuff on the top. It just doesnt work like that. Heroin dealing will generally occur amongst heroin users and large scale heroin suppliers. A small time user of cannabis for example is much more likely to grow themselves or purchase amongst friends and never ever ever come into contact with a big scary man who can also supply some heroin if they fancy trying it. Do you also believe that these multiskilling dealers still hang round at school gates giving kids free samples to get them hooked ? Wake up and smell the coca beans my friend !! 5. Some people are unfortunate enough to have addictive personalities.Quote from PK I wonder about this as I just don't know. I suspect the jury is still out on this one. However I DO know that an overdose of fruit machines is probably not going to put you in the morgue with all the associated costs that we will have to pay for out of our taxes. Right so suicide or killings due to huge debts incurred by gambling doesnt happen then ? And exactly how many people have you seen in the morgue because their last spliff was just a bit too strong ? Once again and for the last time stop generalising about DRUGS !!! 6. Rog is the fuckin scum on this debate, Quote from BK A cretin he most certainly is not. In my experience hop-heads are not the person/friend/family member that you once knew anyway. Perhaps folks like him are not in the minority you claim they are either. After all with age comes experience. However I would say it IS cretinous to financially support a pusher and be smug about it. With words like hop heads and pusher you once again demonstrate your complete lack of qualification to comment. I reckon you would probably agree with recent comments from an MHK that drug dealers in nightclubs should be banned, because outside the nightclub toilets just out of eyesight of the bouncers is where all the life destroying heroin and crack on this island is sold. Ban them from nightclubs thats the way to tackle our hard drug problem !! Apologies for the messy response, havent sussed out this quote thing just yet ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynsheltyn Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 However once again you generalise about DRUG users sticking needles in their arm. Must have the wrong chap. I have never said this before. I don't believe that I said that this time either. I dont want innocent peoples lives blighted by robbery and burglary any more than you I didn't mention that either. but lets get it straight, people dont go out and rob houses to fund a cannabis or mushroom habit !! Are you sure? And as long as heroin and crack cocaine are illegal and underground then these addicts will break the law to fund their cravings. But if it was legal and above ground they wouldn't break the law to fund their cravings? And on your comments regarding feeling hard done by for smoking. Wrong chap again. I don't smoke. Ever been locked up for smoking ? ever got a criminal record ? No ? Not me, no. But plenty of others have. Even for smoking in their own homes. Google it. Level playing field is needed when it comes to the law on these issues. Which is exactly the point I was trying to make. I was trying to highlight the difference, or perhaps similarities, between people's attitude to drug use and people's attitude towards smoking. You said yourself its a matter of personal choice, the only issue that needs to be addressed is when peoples personal choice impacts others Yes. That was me. Right this time. Once again I implore you stop fuckin generalising about DRUG use, then finally the debate might move forward. Oops. Wrong chap again. I don't recall being implored before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Lol, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest anyone,,,..... lol,,.......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausage Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 All comments responded to were made by ynsheltyn or PK at top of page 7 of this thread. And I stand corrected on a technicality re the smoking debate YOU raised, you highlighted how smokers are marginalised and discriminated against for smoking, regardless of this they do not risk criminality for smoking cigarettes in their own home, why should soft drug users, the premise of my point is still valid. Please forgive me for not spending long enough on this forum to have used the quote option successfully. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynsheltyn Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 And I stand corrected on a technicality re the smoking debate YOU raised, you highlighted how smokers are marginalised and discriminated against for smoking, regardless of this they do not risk criminality for smoking cigarettes in their own home, I'm afraid that people DO risk criminality for smoking in their own homes. Perhaps not in the Isle of Man at present, but the laws are progressing through Tynwald. Smokers elsewhere ARE criminalised and have been jailed for such. Article 3, UN Convention on the Rights of the Child Children have the right to be protected from passive smoking. Parents must recognise that passive smoking causes ill-health in children and that they have a responsibility not to inflict harm on their children I'm not aware that there is a similar convention regarding parents who sit in front of the TV snorting heroin. But we are straying into a different debate that probably requires a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 I personally do not see why illegal drugs are seen to be such a big problem. It is alcohol and tobacco that are two main killers and the latter accounts for far more crime. Fair enough heroin is extremely addictive and its users often feel they have to resort to theft but overall it is clear that alcohol is the bigger problem. Maybe the fact that illegal drugs are illegal that this creates a moral dilemma as to what prejudices society holds on drug dealers and users. I do't really see drug dealers being themselves evil in any way. They are just supplying a demand. People want it and they will find a way to get it. In some cases I don't understand what is so great about some drugs, for example cannabis: smells horrible, and makes you feel lethargic. I don't think heroin and the more addictive drugs should be legalised but social drugs such as ecstasy, cannabis, magic mushrooms, and maybe ketamine should. I always find it bizarre how people condone getting drunk yet almost despise the use of ecstacy. This can only be the product of ignorance about drugs. Someone did mention ecstacy being 'cut' with heroin but I think this unlikely. You wouldn't have a really expensive drug 'cut' with ecstacy. I suspect it being ketamine. Though half-jokingly I have always thought, as with drinking, that the reason why heroin is so big on the Island is to relieve the boredom. However, considering just how awful and pokey the nightclub venues on the Island are I cannot understand the reasons for taking ecstacy in there, or maybe that is the point. I definitely do not think laws should be hardened against drug use on the Island and do not think the police should come down as hard on drug users. I think ways should be sought to educate. There is never going to be a method of eliminating drug use, it is just human nature and I think a reflection of the fact that life isn't perfect. All drug use is escapism. Some just want to or need to escape more than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Hello sausage et al, I'm enjoying the debate, although unfortunately I suspect it is getting polarised around age! Anyway, prior to my weekend break I've responded below. As those quote thingeys ARE tricky I've used the sausage bold tactic to help clarify the exchange: sausage: 1. Cannabis = Gateway drug = Absolute bollocks As stated most youngsters start off with booze which is frequently rated much higher in league tables detailing the dangers of drugs than cannabis. I believe in the most recent study alcohol was right up there at number 5 just behind heroin and crack cocaine PK: All you are doing here is just bleating on about alcohol as though it kind-of supports a nebulous position that cannabis is not a gateway drug. In some cases it is as the pushers want you hooked on their most profitable products. You do understand that don't you? sausage: Wrong wrong wrong ! No bleating, pointing out a very simple undeniable fact that the majority of kids first taste of mind altering drugs is through alcohol. Gateway drug is a right wing soundbite created by political morons who have no experience in the field they are debating, very similar to yourself !!! PK: Dear me. I'm afraid I have to tell you pointing out that young adults invariably try alcohol prior to narcotics is not the ground-breaking, debate-winning point you seem to think it is. My apologies, I thought you were quoting alcohol as a feeble attempt to support your rediculous assertion that soft drugs do not lead on to hard drugs. As we all know sometimes they don't. But unfortunately sometimes they do. Also your assumptions around my experiences are only based on what I have posted, which leaves an awful lot of open territory. However I can confirm to you that I have NEVER been a right-wing politician. Sorry and all that. -------------------------------------------------------------- sausage: 2. People talk about DRUGS as if they are all in one category and all evil terrible things that make people rob grannies This is just not the case, time for a sensible debate about each type of drug, its effects on society, dangers, benefits etc. Heroin and crack cocaine seem to be responsible for most of the DRUG related crime you hear about so these two need particular focus PK: There are about 200,000 users of heroin and crack cocaine in the UK.... blah-di-blah-di-blah.....the junkies in the UK have to steal £15,000,000,000 worth of stuff every year to fund their habit. And they DO nick stuff from grannies, the more defenceless the better. Dear me, exactly which planet are you on?. sausage: Again you muppet read my earlier post, I have not denied that heroin and crack users are responsible for huge amounts of crime. Once again and slowly for your benefit, I was trying to say that this shouldnt be attributed to all DRUG users, its so called hard drug users that are largely responsible and this needs to be tackled in other ways than prison and illegality. PK: Well, "muppet", of course ALL crime is NOT attributed to ALL drug users i.e. those on insulin for diabetes are regular drug users but they are unlikely to turn to crime for funding - strange but true I already knew that (jeeeze!) My post above is from Mar 12 2007 05:05 PM and SPECIFICALLY mentions just heroin and crack cocaine users. Do you see any mention of ecstasy or cannabis users in there somewhere that I may have missed? However I completely disagree that this problem needs to be tackled in other ways from prison. Free treatment on the NHS has been available to those addicted for years. But they don't take it up, do they? Instead they make the choice to use crime to support their habit. Other ways have been tried but it would seem the ONLY way to get them off drugs is to incarcerate them and force the issue. By all means try other ways (like the entirely nebulous "education" that we all hear so much about) but only as long as the scum preying on society are still banged up. --------------------------------------------------------------- sausage:3. Prohibition does not work. Its clear from the millions and millions pounds in drug related crime that threatening to lock people up does not stop them from using drugs. Furthermore it puts young people at more risk because they genuinely do not know what they are ingesting. PK: BS in it's purest form. They genuinely do not know just how high they can get and what a plague on society they can become? Yeah, right. I'm also very happy for the jails to be full. I'd far rather they were in there and off the streets rather than preying on the rest of us to feed their habit. sausage: How exactly can it be BS ? Prisons overcrowded, early release for hard drug users who re-offend and re-offend causing more misery to the innocent, IT DOES NOT WORK !!!! PK: That they genuinely don't know what they are getting into is absolute BS in it's purest form. So we have to keep them locked up to protect themselves from themselves and if the prisons are overcrowded and therefore making the whole experience more uncomfortable for them then fine. If it means more scum off the streets then it works for me. ----------------------------------------------------------------- sausage: 4. Many people can use some kind of drug in a controlled moderate way and never let their personal use impact anyone else or society in any way. I speak as one who has worked and progressed in a professional environment successfully for twenty years and been a fully paid up member of society, been convicted of no crimes but occasionally may dabble in something soft !! PK: Completely wrong. The same people who supply soft drugs usually supply hard drugs as well, or at least their organisation does. So over the last 20 years you've been financially supporting their efforts. Well done, something to be proud of not. sausage: You really demonstrate your complete naievity here. You dont call at a 'DRUG' dealers house for him to open a pantry with the soft stuff on the bottom shelf and the really naughty stuff on the top. It just doesnt work like that. Heroin dealing will generally occur amongst heroin users and large scale heroin suppliers. A small time user of cannabis for example is much more likely to grow themselves or purchase amongst friends and never ever ever come into contact with a big scary man who can also supply some heroin if they fancy trying it. Do you also believe that these multiskilling dealers still hang round at school gates giving kids free samples to get them hooked ? Wake up and smell the coca beans my friend !! PK: I've never thought that dealers hung around school gates and I think it's very odd that you would think I do - so that last statement of yours says more about you and your "complete naievity" (ouch!) than it does about me. By the way I've never come across a pusher who was a "big scary man". In my experience they have always looked like a loser and that they will stay a loser for the rest of their days. Maybe it's a mandatory skill that you have to be pond life? Anyway, at the very least you have to lack a conscience I suppose. ------------------------------------------------------------ sausage: 5. Some people are unfortunate enough to have addictive personalities In this case whether it be gambling, alcohol, some kind of drugs, this addictive personality may well cause them problems in life PK: I wonder about this as I just don't know. I suspect the jury is still out on this one. However I DO know that an overdose of fruit machines is probably not going to put you in the morgue with all the associated costs that we will have to pay for out of our taxes. sausage: Right so suicide or killings due to huge debts incurred by gambling doesnt happen then ? And exactly how many people have you seen in the morgue because their last spliff was just a bit too strong ? Once again and for the last time stop generalising about DRUGS !!! PK: Where in any of my posts have I stated that gambling is not a curse either? Where have I said cannabis kills? However I can tell you that a very good friend of mine recently gave up cannabis because "It was fucking me up" and he's not the only one. As you get older the appeal would seem to diminish. Anyway, I put numbers around crime and crack and heroin, why don't you do the same for suicides and gambling? You can then throw in numbers around alcohol abuse as well. But, of course, it will neither justify nor change the misery around drug abuse now will it? --------------------------------------------------------------------- sausage: 6. Rog is the fuckin scum on this debate A self righteous, unsympathetic cretin who thinks he is so much better than everyone else that he can feel comfortable in himself turning his back on his own family. Thank the lord prehistoric people like you are in a small minority in this day and age. PK: A cretin he most certainly is not. In my experience hop-heads are not the person/friend/family member that you once knew anyway. Perhaps folks like him are not in the minority you claim they are either. After all with age comes experience. However I would say it IS cretinous to financially support a pusher and be smug about it. sausage: With words like hop heads and pusher you once again demonstrate your complete lack of qualification to comment. I reckon you would probably agree with recent comments from an MHK that drug dealers in nightclubs should be banned, because outside the nightclub toilets just out of eyesight of the bouncers is where all the life destroying heroin and crack on this island is sold. Ban them from nightclubs thats the way to tackle our hard drug problem !! PK: So if you use a nickname other than the terms "drug user" or "drug supplier" then according to your logic you lack any qualifications (like you would need any!) to comment on here about illegal drugs? Now that IS totally bizarre and "logic" is clearly an inappropriate term with which to describe your thinking processes for which I apologise. ------------------------------------------- It never ceases to amuse me how those who take "soft" drugs for recreational use try and dress it up with "respectability" e.g. "soft drugs aren't drugs at all, well, not really" , "don't tar us with the same brush as thieving hop-heads, we take drugs but it's ok because we can afford it" , "we're not wrong, the law is wrong etc etc etc". They don't get supplied by a "pusher". Oh no, they get their stuff from a "dealer". Like they were buying antiques or whatever. It's just pathetic. At the end of the day no matter what source they are getting it from they are using illegal drugs and financing the supplier of illegal drugs and they don't like the idea that quite rightly it's treated no differently from any other illegal drug activity - end of story. 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slinkydevil Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 However I can tell you that a very good friend of mine recently gave up cannabis because "It was fucking me up" and he's not the only one. It never ceases to amuse me how those who take "soft" drugs for recreational use try and dress it up with "respectability" e.g. "soft drugs aren't drugs at all, well, not really" , "don't tar us with the same brush as thieving hop-heads, we take drugs but it's ok because we can afford it" , "we're not wrong, the law is wrong etc etc etc". They don't get supplied by a "pusher". Oh no, they get their stuff from a "dealer". Like they were buying antiques or whatever. It's just pathetic. At the end of the day no matter what source they are getting it from they are using illegal drugs and financing the supplier of illegal drugs and they don't like the idea that quite rightly it's treated no differently from any other illegal drug activity - end of story. Perhaps you should have shopped your fucking scum junkie of a friend to the police? Pathetic to think he is any different from any other drug user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 harsh words slinky...I like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Perhaps you should have shopped your fucking scum junkie of a friend to the police? Pathetic to think he is any different from any other drug user. So the police could have obtained zero evidence. Good move and one I'm sure the boys in blue would have appreciated. Dear me, the lengths they go to just to try and take a pop........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 "Hop heads"? Have I woken up in a Cliff Richard movie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 "Hop heads"? Have I woken up in a Cliff Richard movie? It's older even than Cliff. Certainly as far back as Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler. That would be about the time it was current. Now it would only be an affectation. Like calling someone old chap. Or speaking Molesworth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Yeah P.K.'s been overdoing the Reefer Madness probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slinkydevil Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 Perhaps you should have shopped your fucking scum junkie of a friend to the police? Pathetic to think he is any different from any other drug user. So the police could have obtained zero evidence. Good move and one I'm sure the boys in blue would have appreciated. Dear me, the lengths they go to just to try and take a pop........ I'm calling bullshit imaginery 'good' friend for effect then. Who are 'they' BTW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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