Cronky Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Fom Manx Radio today a concern is raised that it may start to get difficult to enter the UK without an ID Card: http://www.manxradio.com/readItem.aspx?ID=...mp;cate=General The Daily Mail further explains that, without an ID card you may not even have a passport: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770 It is high time we learned exactly what the implications of UK ID Cards are for the Isle of Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 First I want to make it clear I am not in favour of compulsory ID cards, or biometric passports, or of the concept of being tracked or of linking up the information which is daily gathered about us. Rememeber unless we have committed a crine we do not have to tell a police man who we are. Even then we are entitled to refuse. Mustn't give a false ID however. They are our servants, they and the state have no right to know. That is the historical British position Second I think the story is scare mongering. Passport free, identity card, check free travel between IOM, UK, Ireland and CI arises out of a thing called the Common Travel Area. It is almost like a common exterior border. A bit like Schengen for the EU. There is no suggestion of abolition of the common travel area. In effect our travel is domestic, whether to UK, Channel Islands or Ireland from the IOM. No one is suggesting you will need ID cards to produce to the police as you get off the IOW ferry, at either end, or off the Skye boat or the M4 bridges or even along thye M6. A decision by the police to stop everyone coming off the boats or in any of the other situations and ask for ID would be a breach of police powesr in any event and challengeable in the courts. From a practical point of view we will muddle along as we always have done, being an anaomaly and getting the worst of both worlds when a slow Mr Plod in UK demands to see our documentation, or under the rules that we produce it and we can't and he reacts badly because he has the power, its more than his jobs worth and he is plain ignorant of the anomalous IOM. That being said and done a number or identifier, issued at birth, to be used as a travel document, for health care, as a driving licence, to open bank accounts and to prove age and who we are, maybe including the right to vote, has its attractions, its the linking up of data bases that is the danger. Lets face it we already have a plethora of them for Health, NI, tax, passport, driving licences, membership cards, credit and debit cards. They are slowly being linked up, or access is being allowed. I think that maybe we should have a rethink and the campaigners should identify the real risk and fight against that. The real risk is the leakage and mssuse of information. That is not just by the state. So Bill get your facts right, don't scare monger, stop reading the Daily Mail. The warning to all of us however is that the government is using the perceived terror threat to reduce the freedoms we have all come to expect. Without a written consitution, the Human Rights Act and the courts are your only protection. Don't mock it if the results sometimes seem silly. Always look at it and say if I had been in thaty position how would I expect to be tretaed and if that is how big governemnt treats him, how long before it tries to treat me the same. The truth about the terror threat, from a libertarian point of view has to be that we are spending billions on something we cannot stop, creating a 1984/Kafakaesque society, tearing down civil liberties built up over the centuries and what for? Yes 9/11 was terrible and 7/7 and the Madrid bombs and ETA, and the IRA (and covert government involvement in the latter two at least), and all the other little wars and terrorist attacks all over the world. We coulds save more lives and have a better society and less terror threat if we were less confrontational, less discrimnatory and spent more on road safety (just compare the deaths by terrrorism to road deaths) and health care (deaths by treatable duiseases v terror deaths) and international aid and relief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragmatopian Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 stop reading the Daily Mail Sound advice for anyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 Look, don't shoot the messenger. The Daily Mail article referred to comments on a Downing Street 'webchat' by James Hall, chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service. It is also mentioned on the PJC Journal website. When pressed on what would happen to those who opt out of ID Cards James Hall stated: "There is no need to register and have fingerprints taken - but you will forgo the ability to have a passport". According to the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body Committee A (Sovereign Affairs) meeting in April 2006 the Common Travel Area actually might have to change - - the introduction of British ID Cards, in tandem with other initiatives such as e-Borders, have the potential to affect significantly the operation of the Common Travel Area that exists between Ireland and Britain. A friend of mine, who travelled to Heysham as a foot passenger recently, tells me there is a sign at disembarkation stating that you need identity documents. Whilst I have no corroboration of this the request is against the principles of the CTA and, presumably, illegal and an abuse of power. We will, presumably, learn more when Bill Malarkey hears answers to his questions in the House of Keys this week. John, I agree with virtually everything you say. However, these schemes really have the power to restrict our lives. Had I , five years ago, projected the status quo, you might rightly have called me a scaremonger. These identity schemes are building so fast we really have to be on our gaurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Hi Cronky The answer is there, buried in the long paper. The Home office minister in reply to a question about whether Irish people would need to have an ID card to come and go, in view of fact that the CTA is to be kept dealt with it as follows Asked about the implications for cross-border workers, Mr. Burnham noted that as ID Cards were for residents of the UK, residents of the Republic would not be obliged to carry them. They would be able to come and go without a passport or ID Card. However, the Bill would make provision for such people to voluntarily apply for ID cards if they thought it would be beneficial. Remove republic, substitute IOM that is the answer. Don't have to wait for Bill's question, and if he had googled, neither would he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 10, 2007 Author Share Posted March 10, 2007 My wife and I saw that too. However, The ID Card Bill includes the Isle of Man by Orders in Council so I wouldn't put my money on a conclusion just yet Regards, Cronky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Still gives us the answer either IOM government will ask UK to extend the Act by Order in Council in which case we will have ID cards but not need to show them as we go to Liverpool or Heysham etc or we won't and will be same as Irish. Result no change. Still no threat of 2 lines coming off boat for !D card holders and non ID card holders still no evidence it will make travel harder At Dublin airport now they make IOM visitors to Ireland go through passport control. I breeze through, without question, saying "IOM commom travel area", never fails. Its only the airlines who want photo ID BUT I agree it is a threat and must be watched carefully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Ayres Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Photo ID is also 'requested' at Heysham. I don't think they give a toss who goes to Liverpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 I travel 40 times each year and have never been asked for photo ID at Douglas Heysham or Liverpool. Anyway I assume thats at check in so its the Steam Packet, not security. Just like the airport. I have had my vehicle pulled over several times and they asked to search it. Strangely only ever when travelling in a white van. You can ask if its random or bedcause he has a belief he may find something. That gives different powers. I always ask to see their warrant or ID card and then ask under what legislation and where it was displayed that he had the right At Liverpool where the necessary poster in the search tunnel disappeared 12 months ago the best I've ever had is him radioing his mate to say I was refusing to be searched, but when boss comes along he produced an ID card, private security, and tells me its an EU Maritime Security directive so I let them search. The warning notice properly sign painted on a board is leaned up against the railings behind the search tunnel by the way. In Heysham smart young lady pointed to the sign, showed me her card and told me it was the Maritime Security Act and was an international obligation I pointed out we were in the Common Travel area and this was domestic. She had the right answer and I consented to the search. Its the same with the cops. always be ultra nice, always cooperate, but when they ask you the question you ask back with who are they, where is their warrant card and under what legislation are they asking and why. If you can write it down, ask them to countersign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Jampton Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 Have you ever asked them what on earth they are searching for? We were travelling from Douglas in a car with lots of diving gear including knives. The search involved looking in the glove compartment and behind the sun shields twice. We found it so amusing. What happens if one has no passport or driving licence. Young or elderly people may find theirselves in that predicament at the airport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karellen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The requirement to carry a passport / ID card to leave the island will happen by default as the carriers all move to making this a requirement of carriage in their terms of business. Euromanx and Flybe already make the production of photo ID a requirement of travel. Dont try arguing with them that ID isnt required to travel within the common travel area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 I think you will find that is an airline security requirement. You don't need photo ID on the ferry. Check John Wright's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I think you will find that is an airline security requirement. You don't need photo ID on the ferry. Check John Wright's post. A mate of mine is flying from Manchester to Scotland in the summer and has to get a passport for his daughter to prove her identity. No other photo ID is acceptable, as she hasn't got a driving licence. Thin end of the wedge stuff, as soon passports=ID card and biometric testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 . Thin end of the wedge stuff, as soon passports=ID card and biometric testing. ..and that includes the 12,000 passports that the UK issued "accidently" to the wrong people in the last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballaughbiker Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Hmmm JW, common travel area or no, doesn't Special Branch have a legitimate interest in travellers between UK and IOM? "Someone told me" that SB have passenger name lists provided by the carriers. Does anyone know if this was/still is true? If it is, providing ID will only be confirming what they already know. Personally, I don't object to anyone official knowing who I am. I think the dangers from assorted nutters of the modern world outweigh any personal liberty issues. If you are doing nothing wrong what have you really got to hide? (taking cover from the personal liberty nutters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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