Guernsey To Discuss Severing Link With Uk

[Cronky]

Here is a link to an article in the Daily Telegraph on 19 April.

 

Could this happen here?????

[Albert Tatlock]

I think it is at least a debate that has to happen here periodically.

[Pragmatopian]

Only if the UK approved of the move. I can't see a bunch of us standing around the coast with burning torches and sharpened pitchforks repelling an assault from Her Majesty's armed forces... unless they send the incompetents that got caught by the Iranians

 

More to the point, though - what would be in it for us? We would have to concern ourselves with loads of things that we can currently trust to the UK (not least defence) and which would be disproportionately expensive for us to achieve ourselves as one of the tiniest independent countries in the world.

[Tugger]

Only if the UK approved of the move. I can't see a bunch of us standing around the coast with burning torches and sharpened pitchforks repelling an assault from Her Majesty's armed forces... unless they send the incompetents that got caught by the Iranians

 

More to the point, though - what would be in it for us? We would have to concern ourselves with loads of things that we can currently trust to the UK (not least defence) and which would be disproportionately expensive for us to achieve ourselves as one of the tiniest independent countries in the world.

 

Who are we going to be defending ourselves from? And even if, say, North Korea invaded, do you think the UK would decline to act just because it was no longer formally responsible for our welfare. That said, I'm not exactly sold on the independence idea (I think we probably get more out of the relationship than we put in), but I agree that it's worth having this debate every now and then

[John Wright]

The question was could it happen here

 

The next question must be could what happen here?

 

That it could be debated behind our backs without our being informed, except by accident, ...... well yes of course, it probably has already been. Tynwald debated acceding too and withdrawing from the European Convention in secret in the past. It agreed protocol 3 in secret.

 

That IOM newspapers or MR might get hold and tell us.......not a chance

 

That the public are interested..... well i don't remember it being a debate during the elction campaign, less than 6 months ago.

 

That the UK might stop us, or Guernsey or Jersey......not unless the attitude has changed since the Kilbrandon Report which came up with Protocol 3. The attitude was that we were entitled to self determination if and when we wished. The conclusion also was that we didn't want EEC membership, we weren't consulted, debate behind closed doors. Well we truly lost out on regional funding over 30 plus years because of that.

 

So now 40 years on it probably is time to review our relationships with Westminster, and the EU.

 

Protocol 3 is a serious detriment to the Manx Financial Services economy. Whilst it allows free movement of goods, important with manufacturing being 13% of our economy still, and free movement of most people, subject to work permits and the 4 grandparents, 2 parents rule, it does not allow the sale of Manx Products in financial services into the worlds largest market. We are limited to the UK. We leave out 400 million people. Thats some serious market.

 

What are the choices. We could become part of the UK, no doubt with a fair degree of devolved power, but our power to tax and run our financial services would go. We would be a glorified County Council. We would be fully in the EU

 

We could stay as we are. Agriculture and finacial services are heavily handicapped. Effectively bound to do what ever Westminster tells is is allowed. Not a sign of increasing confidence and maturity as a nation

 

We could try renegotiating Protocol 3. The EU is not interested. They don't want any more derogations or oddities. Can you imagine 26 countries agreeing to give us something for nothing. IOM Government has indicated it wants to review going down this path however.

 

We could go for full independence. What extra cost, we already pay for defence and diplomatic represeantation anyway. We could ask the Irish to do that for us and pay them. We would have to have representataion at the EU and UN and in the UK. If we still remain an associated state we still have protocol 3 which would have to be renegotaited but hopefully we would keep acces into the UK market. We would still have to comply with all the EU stuff on manufacture and trade and finances to sell our products including agriculture into the UK. We could choose to peg our currency to the £ sterling or the Euro or the US$. We would be a very small countryt, but there are many in the UN which are smaller and don't have our advantages. This is an option outside the EU.

 

The other option is to join the EU, reduce our ties with Westmeinster and have fullacccess to the market. There are downsides, work permits would go, but we would get free right to establish for all manxmen, free reciprocal health care and an actual say in the rules and regulations. We would follow EU foreign policy, not UK. We would be defended by EU defence forces. We could still keep our customs union with the UK, after all they have those in Benelux. We would have to pay in, and we are probably too wealthy now to get any money out. We are then on a level playing field, market wise with Luxembourg, Dublin, Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus etc as far as access to the internal markets is concerned, the position re adopting EU legislation is no different to now, we get it anyway, We have a huge amount of devolved power alrady and we can take more.

 

Will the latter option put up our taxes. Well no. As long as our tax regime is fair and does not unfairly discriminate and as long as we raise what we spend the EU cannot make us raise our tax rates to reflect Community averages. In fact we are already a high tax country by comparison, VAT is at the higher end of the allowable bands, with NI income taxation is at between 32% and 40%

 

Is it something we could have a ratioanl debate about, you bet no. There are too many entrenched positions and the UK press is so anti EU.

 

Of course as with everything there are other options, Outside EU, Outside UK, totally independent, restrictions on incomers, Manxmen not able to go to even UK, let alone EU, to work. Pressure on the economy by way of overheating slashed at a stroke, house prices tumble. Or we could go into EU and let the relationship with UK evelove more slowly, the Gibraltar model.

 

soem of the above we could decide whether to keep the Lord of Mann as our head of state or to become a republic and elect a president

[sarahc]

So John which option would you go for?

[John Wright]

So John which option would you go for?

 

 

Me I favour a debate

 

it really is an interesting time to be deabting it as well

 

In Scotland the SNP is expected to be the largest single party after next Thursday. They have STV, so no control. Thye have promised a referendum on independence in 2010.

 

Problem is none of the other Scots parties, lab, Con or Lib Dem will agree to go into coalition on terms to deliver that, and it is unlikely that Holyrood would pass the necessary legislation

 

In Ireland the SNP is being watched. Starnge is it not one bit of the Islands of the North West Atlantic wanting to go its own way, perhapos and undo a union and another where politicians, whilst seeking to undo one union are trying to impose another. What about an independent Ulster or a united ulster and Scotland. Not really discussed.

 

Wjat is obvious is that everyone is pushing for whatever it is tey are oushing within the concept of the EU, for ongoing European political and economic integration but with delivery of services not at nation state level but at regional level. Of course regions tend to reflect the smaller units from which todays nation states coallesced.

 

We are one such small regional nation which did not coallesce. We see our identity at threat. The EU has some of the strongest and best policies to keep regional identity, languages and customs alive. That is important to me.

 

 

But then the EU as presently constituted is anti democratic. That is a very strong worry!

[Pragmatopian]

... or to become a republic and elect a president

 

Bloody hell - it's bad enough having jumped-up town councillors! We could do with having some who's statesmanlike enough to elect as a head of state first.

 

My vote is for the status quo, if only because it's no worse than the alternative.

[Cronky]

Today Manx Radio reports:

 

Chief Minister Tony Brown has signed what's described as "a landmark declaration", recognising the Isle of Man has its own identity and interests in the international arena.

 

The framework of principles has been agreed between the governments of the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom, and reinforces the Island's separate status within its constitutional relationship with the UK.

 

Mr Brown says it's "a significant step forward in our evolution as a mature and responsible democracy and confirms, in writing, that the Island has its own distinct and legitimate interests on the world stage, which may differ from those of the United Kingdom.

 

He says there is now greater clarity about the Island's position, which should help it to flourish as a reputable centre for international business.

 

The United Kingdom has ultimate responsibility for the Isle of Man internationally, and historically all international matters affecting the Island were handled by the UK.

 

However, in recent years the Island has started to deal directly with other governments and organisations, and there is a growing awareness it has its own interests.

 

The agreement was signed on behalf of the UK by the Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer.

 

Look forward to reading a copy of the agreement!

[Chinahand]

Its on the government web site:

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/news/cso/internationalide.xml

 

Framework for developing the international identity of the Isle of Man

Following the statement of intent agreed on 11 January 2006, the Chief Minister of the Isle of Man and the UK Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs have agreed the following principles. They establish a framework for the development of the international identity of the Isle of Man. The framework is intended to clarify the constitutional relationship between the UK and the Isle of Man, which works well and within which methods are evolving to help achieve the mutual interests of both the UK and the Isle of Man.

 

The UK has no democratic accountability in and for the Isle of Man which is governed by its own democratically elected assembly. In the context of the UK’s responsibility for the Isle of Man’s international relations it is understood that -

The UK will not act internationally on behalf of the Isle of Man without prior consultation.

The UK recognises that the interests of the Isle of Man may differ from those of the UK, and the UK will seek to represent any differing interests when acting in an international capacity. This is particularly evident in respect of the relationship with the European Union where the UK interests can be expected to be those of an EU member state and the interests of the Isle of Man can be expected to reflect the fact that the UK’s membership of the EU only extends to the Isle of Man in certain circumstances as set out in Protocol 3 of the UK’s Treaty of Accession.

The Isle of Man has an international identity which is different from that of the UK.

The UK recognises that the Isle of Man is a long-standing, small democracy and supports the principle of the Isle of Man further developing its international identity.

The UK has a role to play in assisting the development of the Isle of Man’s international identity. The role is one of support not interference.

The Isle of Man and the UK commit themselves to open, effective and meaningful dialogue with each other on any issue that may come to affect the constitutional relationship.

International identity is developed effectively through meeting international standards and obligations which are important components of the Isle of Man’s international identity.

The UK will clearly identify its priorities for delivery of its international obligations and agreements so that these are understood, and can be taken into account, by the Isle of Man in developing its own position.

The activities of the UK in the international arena need to have regard to the Isle of Man’s international relations, policies and responsibilities.

The UK and the Isle of Man will work together to resolve or clarify any differences which may arise between their respective interests.

The Isle of Man and the UK will work jointly to promote the legitimate status of the Isle of Man as a responsible, stable and mature democracy with its own broad policy interests and which is willing to engage positively with the international community across a wide range of issues.

 

Signed on 1st May 2007 by:

The Rt Hon Lord Falconer of Thoroton QC, Secretary of State

Hon J A Brown MHK, Chief Minister

[Cambon]

Well being an independant sovereign state works for SEALAND, who says it would not work for us. Smaller, more remote locations such as Bermuda have been discussing it for decades. Some have gone independant.

 

For me, it would be a mixed bag, but I doubt the benefits would outweigh the problems.

 

I have to say, I love Tony Brown's letter there. The UK is the most un-united, united kingdom on earth and yet Tony wants the IOM to unite with the UK. Love it. Surely he means England!

[Cronky]

Very good!

[John Wright]

And where was the public debate. Was it in Mr Browns manifesto as Chief Minister or in his election manifesto

[Lonan3]

Its on the government web site:

 

http://www.gov.im/lib/news/cso/internationalide.xml

 

 

....the Isle of Man which is governed by its own democratically elected assembly.

[Rog]

If the Isle of Man ever does declare independence from The Crown the prediction that my old Mum made 45 plus years ago will come true.

 

“Within seven years the only true Manx left on the Island will be those anchored by Money, Marriage, or Masturbation” .

 

I have no doubt she was absolutely correct.