spermann Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Its cheeky as fuck the number of come-overs who complain about it, in fact one of my all time favourites was the old duffer who moved to the island to retire and complained on the moanin line that he couldn’t get out of his new house in race week because it was on the course! People cannot move to a different country and then bitch about how things are "inconvenient" or “different” This is the isle of man not England/Britian/Scotland/Wales or any other country, anyone who moved to the island cannot have a say in the future of the TT, it’s been around for 100 years now so get used to it or "there’s a boat in the morning". The TT is a tradition and symbol of the IOM much like cats with no tails and kippers etc... Without having the full facts i would suggest that it makes a vast profit. I recall an economic geek suggesting that for every pound introduced to the Island of new income a further 7 pounds is generated within the economy. I take all the previous points that it costs a fair wack on the emergancy services, hospital etc but we should remember that these people who earn the extra overtime, largely pay taxes over here and put their additional income back into the Manx economy. and also by having the TT it means that we always have at least one good road on this fair Isle where we cannot complain about pot holes, humps and bumps (apart from Ballaugh bridge). by the way, for any new non Manx people, please come and share this Island and enjoy the TT, soak up the atmosphere and have a little extra tax free income with homestay. (dont feel you have to put on a crash helmet to enjoy the fortnight) why people leave the island when the TT is on beggers belief? An interesting post which can be summarised thus - The island makes a load of money out of the TT, therefore it is justified. How many deaths in your opinion are acceptable in the pursuit of this profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spermann Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Its cheeky as fuck the number of come-overs who complain about it, in fact one of my all time favourites was the old duffer who moved to the island to retire and complained on the moanin line that he couldn’t get out of his new house in race week because it was on the course! People cannot move to a different country and then bitch about how things are "inconvenient" or “different” This is the isle of man not England/Britian/Scotland/Wales or any other country, anyone who moved to the island cannot have a say in the future of the TT, it’s been around for 100 years now so get used to it or "there’s a boat in the morning". The TT is a tradition and symbol of the IOM much like cats with no tails and kippers etc... Without having the full facts i would suggest that it makes a vast profit. I recall an economic geek suggesting that for every pound introduced to the Island of new income a further 7 pounds is generated within the economy. I take all the previous points that it costs a fair wack on the emergancy services, hospital etc but we should remember that these people who earn the extra overtime, largely pay taxes over here and put their additional income back into the Manx economy. and also by having the TT it means that we always have at least one good road on this fair Isle where we cannot complain about pot holes, humps and bumps (apart from Ballaugh bridge). by the way, for any new non Manx people, please come and share this Island and enjoy the TT, soak up the atmosphere and have a little extra tax free income with homestay. (dont feel you have to put on a crash helmet to enjoy the fortnight) why people leave the island when the TT is on beggers belief? An interesting post which can be summarised thus - The island makes a load of money out of the TT, therefore it is justified. How many deaths in your opinion are acceptable in the pursuit of this profit? In my opinion no deaths are justified in persuit of the love of a sport. Deaths occur in rock climbing, skiing, TT racing, surfing and countless other high risk sports. Perhaps thats why participants take part, for the risk?, but i dont think it is particularily fair on their loved ones who are left behind. I think the thread started of with the simple question is the TT financially proven or viable which i believe it is. And more over i believe that the majority of the people who support it and enjoy comming over, do so in the hope that nobody is seriously injured or killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyrotten Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Going back to the original question -- it's unlikely it ever WILL when the title sponsor (Bennets Bike Insurance) tells its customers that they will not be covered under their existing policies on the road between Ramsey and the Creg during TT fortnight, apparently because of the way the road is treated... MCN today, P14, with quotes. Own goal, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He is over the last Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 Morning All A few interesting views but unfortunately the topic like so many went off track (excuse the pun) and was viewed as anti TT. If I may ask in maybe more definite terms "Are the Tourist Trophy races financially proven or viable". I ask this question because I do believe that a cost analysis has been exercised on some but not all sporting events on the Isle of Man and if proven that they are running at a loss or significant loss then the event has to be removed from the sporting calendar. Has a proper goverment cost analysis been exercised for the Tourist Trophy event/festival? I am not anti TT, I used to watch quite regular as a child, teenager and as an adult. I do admit that I no longer have an interest in the racing now but I do admire the lads who make an effort to come over to have a go so to speak and also have relations who have and still do have a go (participating in the event). For me personally it is not road racing in the true sense but a race against the clock, a time trial in a sense (TT LOL) and can be incessantly boring for periods, but when the very uncommon event of three or four bikes (a gaggle) are racing each other for the corner/racing line then it is exciting and entertaining. Chris Guy, Tom Herron, Graeme Crosby, Joey Dunlop and the huge German chap (was it Hans someone) who's name escapes me at the moment and all those lunatics who volunteered to be sidecar passengers. Great and brave men as are those who compete today. As I stated earlier I have no sympathy for those who choose to live inside the road closure area and then complain, except for those who have to suffer for the location of the hospital. It is without a shadow of a doubt a disruption for myself and members of my family but is also something we are prepared to (and do) accept. All I am asking "Are the Tourist Trophy races financially proven or viable and has a proper cost analysis been exercised"? (If it has where can I find official details and confirmation). I hope you all enjoy your TT 2007 and are safe and well when it is over with lots of treasured memories. He is over the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyboarder Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 If there is any money spare perhaps some of it could go on a proofreader to check the programme for grammatical errors prior to pressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He is over the last Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 Dear All After half a day and a bit (from the earlier post) I can still not get a true answer to my original question. Strange that be. However I will forward my questions to the supposed house with rigor and sit back and wait and wait and wait etc. For crikey's sake I am not asking the unanswerable, just some straight forward honesty. I am not against the Tourist Trophy races, all I want to know is it Financially Proven Or Viable? Crumbs what does it take? He is over the last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 it's a state secret - you won't get a straight answer but the odd statement 'trust me, it makes money'. But to be serious it is probably impossible to give a true breakdown of the costs - yes one can estimate police overtime, cost of extra road sweepers etc(tho not the cost to individuals + businesses, impact on schools etc) but then there is the by now ingrained bias in road maintenance that the course must absorb most of the annual budget (just look around elsewhere at what is acceptable on non-race roads); you will find the budgeted TT hospitality costs but I suspect the hidden costs of a virtually unused grandstand are quite high (maybe now with new surfacing a go-kart track could open). The police are on record as saying that each road fatality costs £500,000 but the need to keep the racetrack means that modern traffic calming cannot be applied (how many extra deaths of non-racers are acceptable ?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 After half a day and a bit (from the earlier post) I can still not get a true answer to my original question. Strange that be. About ten past eleven... ...yours is a silly question really...viability has a much bigger 'answer' than how much simply ends up in the governments coffers. Not everything has a price and can be quantified by accountants - thank goodness - ask the people that give much of their time for free over the fortnight for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 This year the TT seems to have already started with alot of foreign bike-related peeps spotted at various venues over the weekend. I am assuming they are the pathfinders for various corporates who will be over for the TT, so there is an argument that the financial rewards are spread over a much longer period than before. I really don't understand why people are so negative about the TT, it can be an inconvenience, but it doesn't last forever, and, yes, it is dangerous, but so are many other sports and events like the Notting Hill Carnival where, at one time, there were always knifings and muggings, but rather than stop the event that aspect was 'managed', which the powers that be are trying to do here. Why not just go with the flow? Accept it is incovenient and enjoy the spectacle of very many people having a wonderful time and loving the island? I know I will be filling my boots this TT, I have the week off and will enjoy the holiday atmosphere immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallybug Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 ..but then there is the by now ingrained bias in road maintenance that the course must absorb most of the annual budget (just look around elsewhere at what is acceptable on non-race roads); you will find the budgeted TT hospitality costs but I suspect the hidden costs of a virtually unused grandstand are quite high (maybe now with new surfacing a go-kart track could open). They can and do do good work on non-course roads - a prime example is the changes to the road at Fairy Bridge a few years ago, including losing the off-camber farm track entrance just before the bridge heading north, and the overall quality of the new surface was excellent. Yes, the vast majority of the road works are done on the course, but then again the course is 37.73 miles of the main roads on the island, and as such should probably get the lion's share of the available resources, even if they weren't being used as a race track for 4 weeks a year. If we take the main five roads, plus the Mountain Road, we get: A1 Douglas to Peel 11 Miles A2 Ramsey to Douglas 17 miles A3 Ramsey to Castletown 25 miles A4 Kirk Michael to Peel 6 miles A5 Douglas to Port Erin 12.6 miles A18 Mountain Road 13.4 miles Of which the TT course uses 37.73 miles - A1 (6.4 miles), A3 (16.1 miles), A18 (13.4 miles) and a small bit of the A2 (Governer's to QB - 1.8 miles). The main roads, especially the A1, A2, A3, A5 and A18 (with roads like the A26 and A37 being in the second division, if you like) should get the majority of the budget, as they are the roads that take the most traffic, and thus get worn quicker, but you can see that the TT course isn't the be-all and end-all when you drive over the Ginger Hall to Ramsey section of 3.5 miles, as it is as bumpy as anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Quantifying the financial benefits (or otherwise) of the TT is simply impossible. How is it possible, for example, to know how many people would choose to come to the island during those two weeks if there was no TT? You might answer 'not many,' but you couldn't give a specific number. (And before you start to quote figures for the 'foot & mouth' year, don't forget that many came because they'd already booked/paid deposits). Can you quantify the extra sales in local shops, the extra use of local transport, the increased sales of local products? Can you, with any degree of certainty, calculate the number of people who currently leave the island for the period - providing revenue for Steam Packet, airlines etc - that would definitely not do so otherwise? To what degree would the local hotels and campsites be deprived of revenue without the TT? It may seem a simple matter of checking the figures against a year when the TT wasn't held - but only to an unusually blinkered accountant who measures things purely in columns of figures. And, of course, there is the fact that the TT is just about the only thing that gives the island some kind of international recognition - how can that possibly be quantified and evaluated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re roads: The TT course would appear to be 45% or less of the A Roads - assuming some money needs be spend on the considerably greater mileage of other roads I estimate the reasonable spend would be about 25% or less of the budget not the considerably greater than 50%. Take the A1 which is my own selfish interest - look at the difference in quality once you get past Ballacraine - however the two major bugbears Quarterbridge (gone out to external consultants I hear) + Braddan Bridge (+ connection to new Douglas bypass rd) - both need major alterations to road layout which would have been done except they are on the course and the racing line is sacrosant. I will repeat the point - any road such as the mountain road with its excessive number of fatalities would, anywhere other than the Island, long ago have had traffic calming features (eg look at many similar UK roads) - which leads to the key question - how many extra non-racer deaths is the TT worth ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallybug Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re roads:The TT course would appear to be 45% or less of the A Roads - assuming some money needs be spend on the considerably greater mileage of other roads I estimate the reasonable spend would be about 25% or less of the budget not the considerably greater than 50%. They might be 45% of the length of the roads, but how much traffic do they take as a percentage - the only road not on the course that takes a significant weight of traffic is probably the A5, with some also on the A2. The A1 takes Peel (and Kirk Michael, Ballaugh etc up to Ballacraine) etc from Douglas, the A3 is KM, Ballaugh, Sulby etc from Douglas, the A18 probably takes a fair bit of traffic to Ramsey but a lot more from Ramsey. Douglas definitely needs a proper by-pass - it took me about 8 minutes to get from the Grandstand to Quarterbridge a couple weekends ago with all the traffic, and I was on a bike so could filter past some of it. They would probably have to do something like the following picture to get a worthwhile by-pass, taking into account the urban sprawl around Douglas and suburbs, and that wouldn't be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 but how much traffic do they take as a percentage - as a % of total vehicles ? - as % of tonnage (if so I suggest the back-road to Peel + Ballacraine Rd + Shore rd north of Peel must be a major contender due to JCK's dump and a continual stream of heavy lorries. Re vehicles the most heavily used must be the Douglas- Castletown rd - 20 years agoI used to commute to Douglas at over 70mph much of way - now heavily speed restricted. But neither you nor it seems any biker will will admit that the TT course laid out as a racetrack is in itself a cause of excessive deaths (we are all not Stu who seems to think that all users should be 100% perfect drivers and not subject to temptation re just that bit of extra speed and I'm not claiming two wheels bad 4 wheels good here either) - there is an example just down the road here in Guildford, a dual carriageway was a major scene of accidents, now speed restricted especially some distance from junctions, some road layout changed and the virtually constant presence of a mobile speed camera van have significantly reduced the accident rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starchild Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Its cheeky as fuck the number of come-overs who complain about it, in fact one of my all time favourites was the old duffer who moved to the island to retire and complained on the moanin line that he couldn’t get out of his new house in race week because it was on the course! People cannot move to a different country and then bitch about how things are "inconvenient" or “different” This is the isle of man not England/Britian/Scotland/Wales or any other country, anyone who moved to the island cannot have a say in the future of the TT, it’s been around for 100 years now so get used to it or "there’s a boat in the morning". The TT is a tradition and symbol of the IOM much like cats with no tails and kippers etc... Without having the full facts i would suggest that it makes a vast profit. I recall an economic geek suggesting that for every pound introduced to the Island of new income a further 7 pounds is generated within the economy. I take all the previous points that it costs a fair wack on the emergancy services, hospital etc but we should remember that these people who earn the extra overtime, largely pay taxes over here and put their additional income back into the Manx economy. and also by having the TT it means that we always have at least one good road on this fair Isle where we cannot complain about pot holes, humps and bumps (apart from Ballaugh bridge). by the way, for any new non Manx people, please come and share this Island and enjoy the TT, soak up the atmosphere and have a little extra tax free income with homestay. (dont feel you have to put on a crash helmet to enjoy the fortnight) why people leave the island when the TT is on beggers belief? An interesting post which can be summarised thus - The island makes a load of money out of the TT, therefore it is justified. How many deaths in your opinion are acceptable in the pursuit of this profit? Any death caused by ones own actions is tragic, but you can't tell me that anyone who races in the TT is not aware of the risks involved in doing so. My sympathies lie with the families of those who died, because let's face it, the racers know exactly what they are getting themselves into before they ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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