Theodolite Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Manx Radio Report It seems to me that the Legal Aid rate is more than adequate, particularly when compared to other professions on the Island. There was an advocate bleating about this on the forum not too long ago and was going on about how they need office rent, insurance, books, heating, secretary, education, blah, blah. Perhaps he didn't realise that Engineers and accountants and surveyors and a whole stack of others have these very same outlays. To my mind the Legal Aid rate, at something in excess of £100 and hour is more than adequate. How much more of our money can these people possibly screw further? Fair enough when it is some $multi-million finance house that is willing to pay 'em £100s an hour, but when it comes to the local people and the local tax-payer it seems to me to be nothing short of extortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 The problem isn't cost though is it, it's value. If an advocate can make more than double that rate normally, why would they do legal aid? I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just pointing out the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 It's the old chestnut, market forces, supply and demand. If the rate that is being paid now, is a fantastic earner then all the advocates would be falling over themselves to sign up. It obviously isn't that lucrative, so it needs to be increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumble Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Or be made mandatory as part of the qualification - bit like junior doctors doing 70-80 hour shifts before being allowed to become lords of all they survey and charging crazy money for their time and expertise. Crazy money I tell you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 That was cut back some time ago, and with the eu working directives, will be cut down again shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Or be made mandatory as part of the qualification - bit like junior doctors doing 70-80 hour shifts before being allowed to become lords of all they survey and charging crazy money for their time and expertise. Crazy money I tell you... Fair enough if all advocates were the same. What use is a commercial advocate going to be if forced to do legal aid for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodolite Posted May 10, 2007 Author Share Posted May 10, 2007 Market forces, supply and demand. On this Island there seems to be more than a touch of cartel too. What do accountants and architects charge per hour? I am sure they would be overjoyed at a bottomless pit of Government funded work at over £100 per hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugger Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 I honestly don't think that there is much in the way of a cartel in that end of the market. I can see how it pisses people off (especially as most people don't qualify for legal aid in any event), but if the rate keeps dropping fewer and fewer advocates will do that type of work. Those that do will be a mixture of the extremely committed and those who are unable to get any other sort of work. There are always competing demands for public money - it is just a question of how high a priority you ascribe to the poorer segments of our society having access to competent legal advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonan3 Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 There was an advocate bleating about this on the forum not too long ago and was going on about how they need office rent, insurance, books, heating, secretary, education, blah, blah. Please don't remind me of that. It was such an emotional post that I could barely read it through my tears. If it hadn't been for the fact that Uni and Tearz were fractionally more in need of assistance, we'd probably have had to organise a bit of whip-round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted May 10, 2007 Share Posted May 10, 2007 Ho Ho. I wasn't bleating. I was trying a rational explanation as to why £77 for a junior and £104 for a senior advocate does not cover overheads. Anyway this thread is a bit premature. We don't yet know what the proposals are. the report was submitted to government three yeas ago and has been sat on up until now Government may not accept or implement some or all of the recommendations Legal Services are a market lead service just like anything else. Where they are state funded they suffer from the same things as other state funded areas, education, health and social welfare. There is only so much money to go round, that results in rationing. The rationing arises in a number of different ways. First the income limits for qualification, legal aid being means tested, have never kept pace with inflation. Fewer and fewer people qualify for civil legal aid and criminal legal aid. They are excluded from the justice system unless an advocate acts pro bono. Many do. Second the payment levels are low, little scope for interim billing so you only get paid at the end, having to carry the cost for two and three years in some cases. Starting from a low base they are not increased regularly so they fall behind. They become uneconomic. Advocates are unwilling to take the cases on. Third, it is nice to see the suggestion of compulsion for newly qualified advocates, but if you were in custody and needed advice would you want a criminal law specialist or someone who could lease an aircraft or sell a boat. It just is not practical. Fourth, the legal market expand all the time, law changes. There are now human rights cases, administrative law cases, the demand on the system from increased awareness is such that the legal market expands. Fifth, MF was represented in its recent its run, the advocate wrote off his fees and recovered the outstanding amount paid out from the person responsible for the post. Sixth, if freedom is to flourish a state funded medical, dental, education, welfare and legal system are all necessary pillars to ensure the less well off can share and enjoy the benefits. Those on middle incomes can insure against most of those expenses if they do not qualify. Those who are super wealthy can just buy in the services. My experience over nearly 30 years working in law in the Island is that we have good lawyers at all level and most specialisations. They charge from £77 on legal aid to £550 plus for the most esoteric tax and trust advice. What the problem is at the moment is that so few people qualify for legal aid, only those on non contributory benefits. This means there is large proportion of the population who cannot afford to take legal advice or go to court because they cannot afford legal expenses insurance or don't take it out. Then there is the question of the advocates choosing to do work which pays better. It isn't so bad in criminal work as most legal aid is not means tested. There are duty advocates, who cover every criminal court and all police stations out of office hours, their services come free. Problem is that the rota is stretched, it does not pay well enough to attract enough people for daytime cover or in case of a multi defendant matter where there would be conflicts I am not, and have never pleaded poverty, just tried to show that it doesn't pay a large firm to employ a newly qualified advocate to undertake legal aid and that it is not worthwhile a newly qualified advocate setting up on their own and relying on legal aid, with the overheads, and the afcxt that you will not get any income for months if not years. And, what is the most annoying thing of all, if someone cannot find a local advocate to appear the governemnt will then pay legal aid to english solicitors and barristers at £175 or £200 for solicitors and £200 per hour for the barristers, maybe more for someone with specialisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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