saveourwater Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 This 'acutely high' amount is incorrect, fluorosis can begin at 0.02 parts per million and skeletal fluorosis can occur at under 10's of parts per million over a long period of time - these are parts per million we are talking here! Usually the toxicity control level on chemicals is around a multiple of 100 i.e. if something is proven toxic at say 100 ppm the safe level would be to allow 1 ppm. If fluorosis (the first visible sign of fluoride toxicity) begins at .02 ppm then how can anyone say that 1 ppm is 'safe' or that you need to have acutely high amounts for it to start harming you in a serious way. Also fluorosis in adults can often occur in the form of 'occult caries' where the teeth rot from the inside out, all forms of fluorosis are unattractive and will often get worse over time, they will also require repeated expensive dental treatment and upkeep as they can only be treated with crowns or veneers, to say it is cosmetic is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Fluorosis is not a problem for adults and older children. It occurs before the teeth erupt, while the enamel is forming under the gum. Not all forms of fluorosis are unattractive, mild forms often cannot be detected by anyone other than a dentist. Unattractive = cosmetic issue, not health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 I would rather fluoride was added to the water as I think the potential benefits outweigh the potential disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Unattractive = cosmetic issue, not health. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveourwater Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Fluorosis is a problem for adults as well as children, what do you think the children grow up to be? Unattractive = unattractive = poor self confidence = mental health conditions and expensive dental treatments for the rest of your life. Fluorosis is not only unattractive it is the first, visible sign of fluoride poisoning and can lead to a whole bunch of other 'health' problems as previously listed. Fluorosis = health problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 The point I was making is fluorosis does not occur in older children and adults, it occurs in young children while their teeth are forming, prior to the teeth erupting through the gum. Of course they carry the problem into adulthood, but it occurs when they are young children. It's highly unlikely that you will develop dental fluorosis as an adult. Severe cases of dental fluorosis are extremely rare, particularly in the UK. Children with mild fluorosis have fewer cavities and mild fluorosis is undetectable to anyone other than dentists. Severe cases of dental fluorosis can lead to other problems with teeth, whereby teeth can become very chalky and crumbly, but those cases are rare. Many anti-fluoride websites say dental fluorosis is a health problem because unattractive teeth can cause psychological problems, that is not a dental health issue it is an issue society has today with the obsession for perfection and what they deem as attractive. Some websites you have given links to give examples of people with poor dental hygiene being classed as stupid and being refused jobs, that's discrimination on their part, not a health issue caused by fluorosis of the teeth. Fluoride/fluorosis does not cause lack of self esteem, narrowminded, perfection-obsessed people cause that. A mouth full of decayed, rotting teeth could cause more problems than fluorosis. Mottled teeth can be "fixed", agreed it is expensive to do so but it can be done. Decayed teeth more often than not have to be removed because they cannot be "fixed". I'd rather my child had mottled teeth than no teeth. There are no health ramifications from dental fluorosis, it's purely cosmetic. As long as parents are very careful and listen to the advice of dentists/health experts, fluorosis can be avoided or kept under control. Fluorosis is not just caused by fluoridation of water supplies, it can be caused by misuse of other fluoride containing products ie toothpaste, tablets, mouthwash etc. These other health issues you speak about do not stem directly from dental fluorosis, they stem from misuse and overdosing of fluoride, something which can on the whole be avoided if the public pay attention to advice given. This was taken from the National Pure Water Association website....... "DENTAL FLUOROSIS is increasing significantly in areas with and without artificially fluoridated water. It is caused by over-exposure to fluorides from all sources, e.g. fluoridated water, fluoridated tooth-paste, mouth rinses, drops, tablets, gels, sealants and fluoridated school milk programmes. Fluorides are also found in foodstuffs, beverages (particularly tea), medicines, (e.g. Prozac), anaesthetics, pesticides, herbicides and in the polluted air we breathe"...............you can't just blame fluoridation of water supplies for dental fluorosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveourwater Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Evidence suggests that water fluoridation merely delays the onset of caries by about a year or two, so with water fluoridation you are guaranteed a dose of fluorosis (averaging at a level of about 30%) and then you will develop caries on top of that so where is the benefit? The benefit of caries reduction reported by the York Review was only of the order of about 15%, which if caries develop later is negated anyway. You seem to be buying into the myth that water fluoridation is effective, no reports I have read have convinced me so far, water fluoridation is not a magic bullet cure for cavities, at best it merely delays them, at worst it causes them! The other health problems I list are connected to dental fluorosis, if a child has developed dental fluorosis that means that child is already overdosing on fluoride (too late) and potentially harmful conditions can arise later (or earlier) in life. The point you make about parents being careful and listening to the advice of health experts and dentists is invalid, if they were doing that already then the DHSS would not be considering compulsory mass medication in the first place. Cavities can be avoided if people pay attention to advice given, so can many other illnesses and diseases but still people smoke and drink and eat bad diets, fluoridation is not a cure all and has never been proven safe or effective. Your last paragraph is the most sensible as it again highlights some of the risks of over exposure to fluorides, the York Report then the Medical Research Council and the World Health Organisation all reccommend that studies are carried out on total fluoride intakes before water fluoridation is considered - have DHSS done this, have you been surveyed? I haven't! If you want to use fluoride then go ahead buy some fluoride toothpaste, better still buy some strong fluoride mouthwash or if you are that keen for it pay your dentist for some fluoride gel application but don't put it in our water, especially not industrial waste grade stuff, no thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 My point was not invalid. My point was that if parents listen to advice with regards overuse/misuse of fluoride containing products, fluorosis can be avoided or controlled. Of course fluoridation is not a cure, but neither has it been proven to be unsafe or ineffective. The health problems you listed are connected to misuse of fluoride, not to dental fluorosis, and even then there is no hard evidence that these health problems are definitely going to arise from water fluoridation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveourwater Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 There is plenty of hard scientific, dental and medical evidence to prove that artificial fluoridation is unsafe, ineffective and that health problems arise from the practice, the article from The Sunday Express I pasted earlier is just one example of recent evidence, there are many, many more such studies published on the web and in books on the subject. The health problems related to fluoride overdose are connected to dental fluorosis in that dental fluorosis is a 'visible sign' of over exposure to fluorides, over exposure can lead to the health problems listed. What you are trying to insinuate is that if people drink artificially fluoridated water they may get a mild form of dental fluorosis but that this is not important as it is only a 'cosmetic' dental condition. What I am saying is that anyone who has dental fluorosis at any level of severity has overdosed on fluoride intakes and that once they have overdosed they are open to the more dangerous effects of fluoride, this is especially so with the fluorosilicates used in artificial water fluoridation because they are untreated toxic waste and contain known carcinogens, anyone displaying visible signs of overdose from these substances could also be affected by the accumulation of other toxins in their system, this is even more dangerous for adults as they will not have the warning signal of dental fluorosis unless they have ingested artificially fluoridated water from a young age, by the time they find out they have overdosed it may be far too late. Total fluoride exposure does need to be taken into account but considering that the average increase in dental fluorosis after water fluoridation has taken place is 30% what do you think will have tipped the scales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 The health problems related to fluoride overdose are connected to dental fluorosis in that dental fluorosis is a 'visible sign' of over exposure to fluorides, over exposure can lead to the health problems listed.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dental fluorosis doesn't directly cause these problems though. What you are trying to insinuate is that if people drink artificially fluoridated water they may get a mild form of dental fluorosis but that this is not important as it is only a 'cosmetic' dental condition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, what I'm saying is people may get mild signs of fluorosis if they don't listen to the advice given by dentists/health experts with regards the misuse of fluoride containing products. Dental fluorosis is viewed as a cosmetic issue, it does not directly cause other problems which can arise from overexposure to fluoride and it is not a dangerous health issue in itself, it is a cosmetic issue. Only severe forms of fluorosis make the teeth look unattractive due to brown mottling/staining. I've talked about this in previous posts, I am not going to repeat myself. I think you just like quoting from biased websites and are determined to get the last word in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveourwater Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I will respond to points I consider inaccurate whether they appear on this forum the newspaper or elsewhere, it is nothing to do with having the last word as I hope this thread will continue a long way into the future, I consider the issue far more important than my or anyone elses ego. If I was happy to hear people play down the dangers of water fluoridation I would have supported Dr Emerson rather than helped set up a campaign agtainst him. Some people already have dental fluorosis on the island and in other areas where the water is un-fluoridated that means they have overdosed on fluoride already, are they listening to the experts? When water fluoridation is increased you can expect a rise in dental fluorosis of about 30%. Water fluoridation was shown to reduce tooth decay rates only of the order of about 15% and has also been shown to delay decay by a period of about 1 or 2 years, so by those numbers we see a drop in one dental condition of 15% and an increase in another of 30% and the 15% drop only lasts for 1 or 2 years then the decay begins anyway so effectivley we are kidding ourselves for a couple of years that fluoridation is working and at the same time exposing 30% of the population to fluoride overdose (and don't forget that this is only visible in children -adults could be overdosing but you wont be able to tell). The York Report did not class fluorosis as 'cosmetic', sure a denstist will class it as 'cosmetic' but it IS a sign of fluoride poisoning, fluoride overdose, overdose of a toxic substnace this is not good and is a health issue, the actual dental condition may be regarded by dentists as 'cosmetic' but you seem to be confusing this with the fact that it is a visible sign of someone being poisoned by something, this is a health issue, if someone is poisoned then that is not good especially if it is beginning to change the structure of the hardest material in their body their teeth, imagine what it is doing to the soft tissues! Dental fluorosis can be treated by crowns or veneers which need lifetime upkeep, a filling can be filled and if the person is eating sensibly and has a good daily oral hygiene routine then they should be able to keep cavities at bay themselves. Instruction on diet and oral hygiene needs to be brought into the classroom if it is currently failing, this would be a far better way to respond to the issue than pouring toxic waste by-products into our drinking water, products that have never been safety tested and have been rejected by nearly the whole of Europe. Dr Emerson wants a 'quick fix' but I am afraid it does not exist, he needs to assemble a team of dentists and dieticians and go out there and do his job properly and educate the people at a young age, he needs to leaflet every household and visit every school again and again and show them pictures of tooth decay and then remind them of the importance of controlling sugar intake and of a good oral hygiene routine, until the message finally sinks in, this is the only way to combat the sugar giants, with education. Water fluoridation has never been proven safe or effective and the benefits (15% reduction in tooth decay but decay after a couple of years) can never outweigh the dangers, fluorosis, cavities, cancer, brittle bone disease, lowered IQ and alzheimer's and massively increased amounts of an extremely toxic substance in our living environment and food and drink, don't forget that it will not only be present in the water what about all the food and drink goods made on the island, the bread, the beer, the crops, the milk and it goes on and on and on it's total madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Quoting from biased anti fluoride websites doesn't make you an expert. There is no hard evidence to show that fluoridation of water will cause cancer, mental retardation, low IQ etc. Testing a couple of children here and there and then claiming fluoride makes them thick is not hard evidence. Comparing the behaviour of rats overdosed with fluoride to hyperactive children is not hard evidence. Water fluoridation on its own does not cause the problems and the poisoning, people's misuse of products cause them. I am not confusing anything, you suggested that fluorosis causes further problems which it doesn't, misuse of products does. There is no particular health danger from dental fluorosis itself. Proper education and use of products would avoid fluorosis. Unattractive teeth is a cosmetic issue, if it's seen as a health issue because of psychological problems encountered by people with fluorosis then that is an issue with society today and their judgement of people who aren't "perfect". To claim that children with fluorosis will grow up to be repeat offenders, homeless, jobless etc in my opinion is ridiculous, unsubstantiated, judgemental rubbish. (I think these claims are somewhere on the NPWA website) Maybe the narrowminded people who judge others with less than perfect teeth are the people who need educating the most. Anyway, I've made my point and I'm not gonna repeat myself anymore, you've not 'converted' me but I wish you well with your campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveourwater Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Thanks, the campaign is going very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minnie Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 See, you were determined to have the last word!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 This is killing me..... There I had the last word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.